Everyone welcome back to another episode of the meet kevin show today we've got got a lot to talk about because we got to talk to some industry execs professionals about what's happening in crypto. This are these rumors. We're hearing about the complete collapse of crypto would bitcoin potentially ever go to zero and we gotta start off by asking mr. Wonderful.

A strategic investor in wonderful and uh ben uh. All of us we gotta talk about the collapse of voyager digital. This morning. Even after ftx's sam bankman.

Freed came in and bailed them out with an over 450 million dollar loan. They're still filing for bankruptcy. And now individual investors in the platform and retail investors can't get their money out folks uh kevin o'leary. I want to start with you what's happening here and then i want to hear from uh wonderful.

And maybe how things are different with you you know this is nothing new um in the story of leverage and so in every cycle. What happens is various actors companies take on more and more aggressive positions using leverage to goose returns. Which is age old it works it definitely works now what you're going to find in this situation is many crypto operators. Particularly lending.

Platforms have never operated it with such volatility before so they were in the slow growth from bitcoin. You know almost a decade ago from 800. All the way to 60 000. And all along the way some of them became really aggressive in using leverage.

Which is the traditional hedge fund model. Now what happens um and this happens in equities. It happens in bonds. It happens in real estate.

It happens in crypto crypto's the johnny come lately new asset class with a whole lot of newbies in it you're going to see a whole series of these actors get crushed to zero over the next few months um. In in the contagion of of leverage being caught offside with the lack of liquidity. Voyager is not that big a deal it's it's kind of irrelevant in terms of you know this is a diversified shareholder base um. It's it's not fdic insured in any way so it's not putting any stress on the the government systems in any way all the shareholders should consider themselves educated no different than when you go to las vegas.

Put it all on black and it's red. You lose. That's exactly what's happened here. But the great news about this.

And why this is so good for the market and how this helps the crypto market is it educates the business models that aren't going to work so it's like taking a big spatula from the sky and scraping. All the crap out of the market. And it's going to happen very very quickly so anything that was built on you know a business model that is is not going to work or can't sustain volatility is going to be gone. And it's a good thing.

It's a wonderful thing. It's going to leave the industry much stronger yes. We must mourn the investors that got wiped out to zero. But even they are better off in the sense that they've been educated so how do you know what's safe kevin o'leary.

What do you look for in a company to know because we we voyager was a public company. We could look at their statements and their filings from march 31st. And we see well they had money and the ceo and interviews told us hey. We only lend to qualified institutions or we blend the bulk of our money to large institutions.

One of them ended up being three arrows capital where they lended 33 cents out of every dollar. They lent to who got completely wiped out so how do we protect ourselves. Even with public financials you own crypto without leverage and you understand your counterparty risk. Don't worry by the time.

All the litigation. Is over from all these bankruptcies. You'll know everything about everybody lawyers are really good at doing that and there'll be tons of class action. If not just straight on litigation to go after any assets.

They can get and that's that is sort of you know when a fish dies in the ocean. It goes to the bottom. And that protein is reprocessed by slugs and i'm not saying. Lawyers are slugs.

They have more than single cell proteins. But they know how to get the last drop of any value there and they're going to get it it's going to take five to seven years. But all of this is good so in when i hold crypto and i know it's very volatile. I have zero zero leverage in any of my positions.

Because i know tomorrow morning. I can wake up down 38 in any token. Any coin. Any project and and really that's exactly what's happened so you know it.

But if you put on leverage you learn the very very important lesson you go to xero ben. I want to ask you how are you different. At wonder fi. How are you not lending to hedge funds like three arrows capital or if you are how do you vet them differently.

What what's different about you why are you not going to be a blackfy or a voyager and this ties back into the question you just asked kevin. Which is how does he decide what's safe to invest in and one of the things that he has been talking about for many years before i even got involved with crypto was just about compliance and regulation and obviously coming from the the world that he does and so that is the difference with wonderful and bit by in coinberry. Which are a couple of the brands that we have under the under the wonderful banner all of our platforms are regulated by securities regulators in in canada and what that means is when we offer products. We have to vet them with the regulators and so we have to go to the regulators with a plan around how we're going to actually implement something like staking for example uh.

You know be able to assess the different risk profiles have you know a bunch of processes and backstops in place before we can actually bring that product to market now. When you look at a platform uh you know not to single out voyager. But just as it's in the news. That is something that did have some um you know some state licenses in the us.

But really didn't have the oversight of a regulator like the sec or the ontario securities commission in canada and so products that they're offering like uh that that offer yield to customers. And that's what we're seeing implode right now nobody. No regulator. Had been looking at that or had vetted that to see what types of risks.

Exist for the business and for the customers and so the regulation piece becomes extremely important and i think this uh this you know these events with with voyager with uh celsius and and with block five which are all happening around the same time this this crypto liquidity crisis that uh it you know going back to what kevin said. It's an education for users and for shareholders. It's also part of the growth of the industry. So we will see regulators focus on this particular issue going forward and and we can look back at the evolution of crypto over the last 10 years.

There's been significant events like this before i see this as sort of the second wave of uh crashes in crypto that lead to specific types of regulation. The first was when in 2016. 2017 where you had crypto exchanges that were run by individuals who would uh basically have control over all customer funds. So this is not even talking about you know lending or anything like that they just you would deposit funds and then it would you know go into the ceo's pocket basically.

And so that led to a bunch of these debacles with quadriga and and you know other things that led to ccaa and people losing tons of or not you know insolvency and people losing all their funds. And what came out of that was regulators. Now. Saying.

Crypto exchanges that are regulated need to have a third party custodian that holds customer funds. It can't be in the ceo's pocket and so that it's obviously in hindsight. It makes a ton of sense. But we needed to have that um those incidents happen and so this is i think the second wave of that yeah.

That's really interesting because you do get companies that uh like voyager digital put it up on a screen here they have these disclaimers at the bottom. That say hey uh. You know they they're a fincen registered company they file public disclosures. Because they're a public company.

And so it's certainly challenging at best and at worst. Just outright discouraging and confusing for the retail consumer to know hey like who's regulated the right way like which license. Am i looking for and so i guess. The question now is what's safe in this kind of environment and i'm going to start kevin o'leary.

I want to hear your take are stable coins safe right now or do we need to be worried that if bitcoin drops to 10k. We're gonna see the gemini token go under because of all this over uh rehypothecation or worse. Usdc goes. Under and then any company that's offering staking risks.

Some form of stable coin meltdown. What's your take on that well let's talk about that specifically because i think. It's a great topic for several reasons. Reason.

Number. One is people think that crypto the entire sector is going to get regulated. All at once that's not going to happen the most likely scenario. And this is a personal opinion.

But one i've been working on in washington. Along with others is that we would like to get policy on just stable coins first because stable coins. Represent a very powerful and efficient payment system and we think we can get bipartisan support between both parties supporting the american dollar as a default currency for a global payment system. It's not going to be the chinese.

One it's not going to be swiss franc. It's not going to be the euro. It's not going to be the british pound and the reason it would fall and default to the us dollar would be that that is the currency used to denominate. Most commodities and so the challenge you have right now and why there's so much pressure to solve this is it's very inefficient to transfer us.

Dollars over to geneva then put it into swiss francs and then buy swiss nestle stock or whatever. It is you want to do over there. It's really slow very inefficient. Very costly not transparent and not easy to audit and so all of that problem goes away with a stable coin.

Now. The proposed policy that you'll find in gre in granular form. In both the haggerty and toomey bills and i've met with both of them. As as many others have this is very simple policy.

What it looks as it says okay for any stable coin. Any stable coin. An audit every 30 days and any asset underlying holding up the value of the coin or token cannot have a duration of more than 12 months. Now you've seen that policy before it's called a money market fund and you'll find it at fidelity and putnam and many other financial services entities that are fdic insured circle.

If it wish that issues usdc could become a bank they could be fdic insured if they wanted to but they are sort of leading the pack with crypto in terms of payment systems under a stable coin that has not broken a buck. So you can you've. Seen even tether trades below a. Dollar it's 0999.

Right now. And so when you break a buck you lose a lot of confidence so what i'd like to see happen here is that we regulate stable coins first because of their utilitarian value within the crypto universe and that get done in this calendar year. And the reason that might happen is to me is retiring and he is a driving force as you know on the hill. And is really behind this momentum.

And this bill and has lots of support from both sides of the aisle. So i think that's good now obviously what happened to luna is an example of what not to do so again a sad situation. Billions lost. But a great education to the market algorithmic based stable coins now i don't think we're going to do that again.

I'd rather see something back by us dollar or assets that are very liquid that can have duration less than 12 months. So that makes sense to me so at the end of the day. The bad ideas get you know removed by the big spatula and again. It's unfortunate for those investors that didn't think it through.

But not all stable coins are alike. Usdc being the leader currently now having said that if you go look at current yields across the spectrum of duration from one month to 12 months. It's only 50 basis points. Right now so right now usdc.

While it hasn't broken a dollar is not a great place to park cash because you can do. 12 percent in commercial money market accounts in us. Dollars. So at any one time you have to manage assets as you always have to i think usdc when things stabilize and there's more demand for it will probably have rates 300 basis points higher than one percent.

But you just don't know and when you were putting out loans on platform. It would have been best to ladder them from one month to 12. So you'd still be accruing three to four percent. But everybody's learning that's my whole point that was a long dissertation about what i think is going to happen in stable coins.

But if you're going to be in a stable coin. It's only a personal opinion usdc is the one that has not broken a buck recently. Yeah. And so i want to ask a follow up to that and then go to ben the follow up is a lot of folks.

I don't believe realize that when they do stake a usdc stablecoin even though that coin is backed by a dollar. If it's then lent out that person no longer has the right to the claim of that dollar the person whom. The coin is lent to has that right and i wonder is there a risk that uh companies are leading a lot of retail consumers to believe that oh no you can always rename it for a dollar without mentioning that oh. But it's leveraged out 10 20 30 times and ben i'm gonna end up asking you after uh kevin o'leary here how many times are these stable coins lent out do we have any idea about that but kevin o'leary for you isn't that a risk if you take yield that you're actually becoming a lender and if we have systemic shocks or at least certainly going through a bear market that you could even see a usdc break a buck and even though it's backed by the dollar.

The people who lent out or state lose and the last person who's not staking it up they get the dollar. What's your take on that so that's where you need management and compliance and total transparency and so those who have opened accounts with circle itself managed under corporate accounts. Understand exactly what you just disclosed. But also the company is constantly monitoring its margin requirements and exactly what it's got and what it's holding and you can't if you have an account with circle you're getting a constant stream of information answering exactly those types of questions because they have their brand to protect they also have that dollar strike value to protect and they have their corporate accounts and count holders to protect and they want to do that they want to emerge from this successful even though.

It's been tested with volatility and i will remind you that recently it was disclosed that both fidelity and blackrock each invested 200 million dollars in the series f of circle. That is a huge vote of confidence in the middle of all of this volatility. We're talking about the equity of the company and so they're the most conservative money managers on earth putting a bet forward on circle becoming at least one of the regulated cryptocurrencies that are stable and so at the end of the day you know they have the risk too we all have risk. But if i have to bet i'll invest beside fidelity and blackrock and that's exactly what i did ben your take on stable coins.

And what do you all do at wonderful uh. How how was that sort of uh you know when individual stake. How do you handle the disclosures for that but also more interestingly can you give us some insight into how often are these stable coins. Circulated through the system is it you know somebody deposits a hundred thousand dollars and then that gets cycled through five times is it a hundred times.

How many times does that lent stablecoin sort of move around so so yeah. A couple questions in there and and i think they're. It's uh. I i love the you know the root of all your questions comes back to there's a lot of retail confusion about products and licenses.

And what's regulated and what's not and what the risks are that's what it comes comes down to and even for sophisticated people like you pulled up voyager's website. Okay. It's a public company. It's licensed by fincen.

There should be some comfort level with that and as much as i you know i compliance and regulation can be a boring thing to talk about and i'm actually a lawyer in a previous life uh. You know one of those uh bottom feeding fish that kevin mentioned or whatever the phrase was but um. But you know as much as i try to get away from that that's really you know the dna of what we're doing is really around regulation and compliance and so much of that comes back to disclosure and really helping customers understand what the risks are so just to kind of cycle through a few of the topics and questions. I think um you know from for for users that because.

This is just going to become more and more um important especially in in light of some of these incidents now so you know with with fincen and fintrac those registrations. They're not actually protecting the customer. They're really focused around anti money laundering rules. And and um.

There's not uh a customer protection that lies in there. It's really the licenses with the sec or the osc. The securities commissions that have these mandates of protecting investors and and users now uh in the crypto space. Now that they've asserted jurisdiction over that so those are the regulators that are making sure that uh customer funds are held by a third party custodian that if platforms like uh wonderful or bit by or coinberry are doing staking that they vetted the process as in the regulators have ended the process and they're comfortable with it and so you know tying that back into what we do we we actually don't offer staking through our platforms.

Yet. But we are we've been in discussions with the regulators for for quite some time and there's always pressures to bring new products to market and obviously we've you know i i face that in my role and we face that as a company. But at the end of the day in situations like this it's you know it's better to be a bit slower moving and make sure that the products that you're offering are safe and secure for customers because at the end of the day. This is no longer just an early adopter crowd that we're dealing with in crypto you're now really getting into closer to some you know some mainstream adoption.

So you're getting people that don't have uh necessarily. The sophistication or background of crypto trading for years and so um. There's a lot of additional risks that come in for those users. So i think it just becomes it becomes more and more important for companies to be clear about what the risks are with the platforms and i know a big topic with some of the with the liquidity crisis with some of these companies we're seeing is that there weren't really proper disclosures around what's being done with customer deposits.

And that's crucial. And so i think that i mean. That's going to get weeded out with this and uh and it's going to become something that i hope retail users can um. You know will be able to to address easier.

And i think it's great that you know you're talking about this and bringing it you know to the top of your agenda. Because at the end of the day. This is also a place where people go to to learn about crypto and how to access it and what the risks are it's not just you know not everybody goes and downloads financial statements and reads them and understands them i think people are really looking to to voices. Um.

You know in in traditional finance and crypto to to learn and understand so uh what risks would customers face if they wanted to go to wonderful or would they face any what kind of confidence would they have that they're not going to get voyager and we're not going to see this sort of celsius limitation of withdrawals and then maybe second. If you could speak to how how have signups been lately are you noticing at the business. A little bit of a slowdown in the last few months. Yeah so definitely so the second part first which is generally i think the the whole crypto industry.

All platforms have seen you know a general decline this year just with with you know macro economic conditions and and what's been happening in the crypto market as a result so i think you know generally. There's you know a bit of a softer market right now. But nothing that we haven't seen before and in terms of confidence for customers. We we don't lend out any customer assets.

No we've never done that you know nor will we do that unless we find a way that is you know is vetted and approved by regulators. That has you know doesn't have the risk profile of some of these incidences. But you know it's not part of the it's not part of the plan right now. I think our our business.

Really focuses around providing a simple compliant way for people to trade crypto and just making it as dead simple as possible and so i think some of the strategies. The high risk strategies that you've seen with uh with some of the names in the news recently those are people that you know companies that were chasing you know higher revenue higher returns and offering things that were unsustainable for customers like 20 you know yields on their on their crypto assets. So that's something that right now we we're not even allowed to do that because we're regulated and we would need to you know we need to get through a process of the regulator to be able to do that and now with in light of these incidents uh. We for us to get through a process with a regulator to be able to offer a lending yield product through bit by or through coinberry.

The regulators are going to now have to get comfortable with all of uh. You know all the risks that we're seeing come out of uh of these uh of these situations. So it's gonna be a you know it's to be a long process before we would be able to do that got it i want to talk now broadly about the crypto market. Kevin o'leary uh your thoughts on how low can bitcoin go are we are we going to 13k you know kathy wood says uh 22 000.

Should have been the 200 week moving average floor and that would have been tough to go through we blew right through that we're going to 13. When when do we go bullish here or do we buy the dip or do we wait. It's impossible to know uh you know how where the bottom is but i would say this i don't believe we've seen the bottom yet. And i have a different view of it i go back again to other asset classes that i've invested in for decades in every case you know traditional bonds traditional equities real estate alternative asset classes bottoms are reached with an event a panic event as i call it and you can find it in every asset class.

You know back in the hedge fund days when they started gating. These large hit multi billion dollar. Hedge funds that gated shut down their liquidity. Caused panic and you saw bottoms in equities as they were being liquidated uh.

There's long term uh was one of the classics in the last couple of decades. And it was it was a fun that was over levered and blew up we haven't seen that yet in crypto land. There's no no big guy has gone to zero yet and i think that's still to come hard to say who it is because it's going to be because of leverage and some kind of relationship in a counterparty holding that they have not disclosed and i'm just speculating right now. But that would be very healthy for the market to have that happen voyager is too small it doesn't matter the rest of these guys were kind of irrelevant in terms of total market cap bitcoin and the crypto market itself has almost been cut in half in total market cap and and so you would think we're on our way to the bottom.

But i like a big big panic event that's always been a great way to bottom it's towel throwing it's capitulation it's massive volume it's total panic in the streets and always a great buying opportunity. I have no idea who's next could be tomorrow morning could be a month from now. But it's coming to a theater near you and and it will definitely be a very good thing for this industry. It'll be a great thing because it'll take out all of the bad broken business models.

The heavy leverage the speculation that was too risky and push everybody and this kind of circles back to the conversation you were having with ben at wonderful the the reason. I'm an investor in wonderful is i need a place to store my crypto assets that fit into my compliance and accounting departments and so you know when when wonder if i had was able to offer me a centralized wallet. It at bit by i was able to say to my auditors look you can audit this thing daily weekly quarterly monthly and i can mark to market each position for you at four o'clock. Even though it's irrelevant in crypto land it trades.

24. 7. But the old infrastructure of compliance. That exists for all financial markets has not yet provided systems yet for anybody that wants to be compliant like i have to be i don't have an option.

I have to go through audit. I'm an investor in many other financial services companies that are issuers under regulations in many countries. We have to have our audit statements signed and kevin kevin here you've lost your audio there for uh the last uh maybe 30 seconds or so uh in in the meantime. While that gets fixed ben your take what's it gonna take to get to a bottom.

I think these are definitely good signs that we're getting close to the bottom and we'll have to see how uh voyager block. Five celsius play out i think there is a potential that uh you know some of those firms are gonna have to liquidate large amounts of crypto which you know will would likely send the market uh down further and to kevin's point. We'll you know we'll see what uh. We'll see what else comes up over the over the coming weeks.

Um. You know i know there's a lot of other firms. That have been lending and and using high risk strategies and so it's also good as this you know more news about these um firms comes out because you do get more good analysis and information about the different strategies that they were using and the different risk profiles um. So you know i think we'll learn a little bit.

More. As we go forward and sort of see how big uh. You know see how big this uh. This issue uh.

Really really is and you know. And then obviously. The other part is the you know macro um. You know economic conditions and uh.

You know my my i won't throw my guesses in on that i i feel like they're you know they're uh as good as anybody else's guess so got it got it uh kevin. Do we have you back. I think you do we do yeah go ahead and finish your thought there and i it sounds to me. And maybe you can also address this the follow up question.

I had for you which was would you after you finish your thought say that you're looking for a big spike in the vix in the stock market to find a bottom there as well um. Well let's stay on crypto for a second the point. I was trying to make when i lost audio was that um. It's taken me a long time to convince my existing compliance and accounting infrastructure.

That supports my operating companies investments across a wide range of financial services to get on board with my positions in crypto because remember i own i own wonderfuy because i want to own infrastructure equity. Same for ftx same for circle. I'm a shareholder of those companies and immutable holdings in the nft space that's my basket of equities that are all compliant operations. They're all compliant they all work under very strict compliance that's the test that starts the equity investment.

But the more interesting challenge that i solved recently um with wonderful again with bit by was to actually open an account transfer. All of my projects. Whether it was a polygon or helium or whatever i mean all this stuff to me these are not coins. It's just software that's all it is and moved it into and slowly.

I'm doing this i'm not finished yet into bit by where i can get a statement each month that my auditor gets before i do and my compliance department marks to market every day at four o'clock and i don't you know i find it so humorous that the whole compliance world still marks to market crypto at 401 pm. As if that means anything. It's because it's trading 24 7. But they mark to market.

It because they have this giant infrastructure. That reports back up is there over leveraged positions is the position more than five percent depending on the mandate that it's held in but this is what wonderful is doing it's working under the regulator. Under an order completely compliant actually has a public auditor looking at it now signing my statements that's a big deal that did not happen for years and that's why i'd rather invest there. Because that's going to become more and more and more important as regulation comes.

The large institutions that don't own any crypto. Need the wonder flies of the world totally compliant whether it's decentralized or centralized and auditors that can actually use the infrastructure. They're building to make sure they can mark to market according to the traditional rules of compliance there's a commenter here asking if your stance on nfts has changed at all from the utility of nfts related to cars or watches. I'm still a huge fan of nfts for authentication not for trading.

I have never ever traded one until the the regulator tells me if it's a commodity or a uh or a security because i don't want to get caught in that debate. But i have used them last week. There was a there was an art exhibit on in new york and i bought a piece and i asked the dealer and the artist. I will not take delivery without an authentication nft and i and they and they said well wait a second.

We don't have one. I said then you don't have a sale. I want that so i can send it to my insurance company that's the way things are moving. I'm not trading that nft it's attached physically.

If you want to think of it that way to the piece of art. I bought it will trade when the physical art trades. But now i'm able to actually send the nft to my insurance company and say. This is what i bought this is when i bought it here the attributes of it here's its physical location.

It's on transportation. Now down to florida to my home and all of that is covered in this nft. So that's the future of nfts for me you know if i don't know about an ape or any of that stuff because i you know to me where's the intrinsic value there um somebody tried to sell me an ape for 362 thousand dollars. It's now worth 60.

That's not good all right last question and then i'll open up just final comments from both of you so this question for both of you what happens. When people like sam bankman. Freed run out of money to keep bailing out companies in the industry. And maybe we do get that mass panic event are retail consumers going to want to be part of crypto.

When that event happens or jump. In you know after that event happens you first kevin earlier than ben well i have to disclose. I'm a shareholder ben you should be aware as a shareholder and wonderful as well he came in around the same time. I did i am a paid spokesperson for ftx.

So i have a lot of respect for the management. There i did a lot of due diligence before i accepted that position because i wanted to have a compliant home. But sam is one of the smarter guys in this space for this reason long before crypto. He was a traitor he understands the power of leverage both to the dark side and the upside of performance.

So i'm going to guess. And it's a personal opinion. The last guy to blow up is going to be sam bankman freed. Because he doesn't get himself caught in over levered positions.

Now they've been they're very very good in terms of managing their own business. He's got a huge team there ryan. The ceo they also manage the americas differently they do the rest of the world their compliance. His parents are compliance lawyers at samford.

I mean he doesn't have a better heritage in terms of managing this process. So i i think he's probably going to be one of the ones that picks up the pieces and has been doing that in recent purchases that are made public in various platforms. That are just getting crushed. It's a long term strategic move.

I think it's smart. Ben your thoughts liquidity vc space. What what are you seeing uh. What happens.

If uh sam bakeman. Free runs out of money or or will. He yeah. I think if if sam runs out of money it would be interesting to see if other more traditional financial institutions uh step in to participate in you know in in bailing out uh.

Some of these uh. Some of these parties. I think that'll be interesting because we have seen a lot of uh financial institutions make big investments into the crypto space. So i think that'll be something to keep an eye on uh you know government involvement and bailouts.

I you know i don't necessarily know whether that's on the table. But i think that's you know that's the the sort of lens that i'm looking at it through and um yeah. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. I.

Do think. It is great uh to see sam and fdx stepping up and um. And you know hopefully being able to preserve some customer funds through the actions that they're taking i think at the end of the day. You know we we can look at this from an investor standpoint from a user standpoint.

You know whatever it is but at the end of the day. There are lots of retail users of crypto a lot of them first time who are uh stuck out holding the bag and with amounts of money that are very significant to them and um and so i think always looking at it from that lens is really important because this is a an asset class and a technology. That is meant for mass adoption. It's meant for you know to be a currency of the people and uh and and so i think we should really never lose sight of that so i i think from that lens.

What sam is doing is you know is fantastic and hopefully he will you know will he'll be able to you know keep keep the dollars in some people's pockets through uh through ftx's actions. Sounds. Great. Let's get some final thoughts from both of you maybe 60 seconds each final thoughts on the crypto market are you waiting for that big panic.

Uh or uh. You know what's what's the future do we still have a future in uh in the crypto utility crypto investing kevin o'leary we'll start with you uh final comments or pitches that you want to make and then ben and uh then uh then we will wrap it up i think crypto has a very bright future. I'll be bold enough to say in this very volatile market for crypto that within a decade. It'll be the 12th sector of the s p.

And the reason is there's just too much productivity. Too much transparency really strong vehicles for solving financial services. Problems that exist today like transferring capital. As i talked about earlier.

It's just too good and and too efficient and so it'll remain the key is we need to get some policy. We're i think it'll happen first with stable coins and you know you asked the question. But the stock market is no different than the crypto market. The stock market is still a little expensive.

If you believe we're having a recession probably fairly valued if we if you think we're having a soft landing. The troubles. Nobody knows so you're going to see this tribulation going back and forth until. We've resolved that question and we know where the fed stands in further rate hikes.

But there are some great companies that have lost 20 30 40 percent of their value. And i have to admit. I'm nibbling in equities as well just as i am in crypto and so i can't call the bottom. But i don't use leverage that's the secret sauce.

Everybody's calling me up want to lend me money and i just say no no nanette not interested awesome uh. Ben uh. Final comments from you so definitely crypto's not dead bitcoin's not dead. I think we've whenever we have uh situations like this or markets.

Like this. We've heard that question come up time and time again over the last 10 years. And i think the way to look at it is you have these aggressive aggressive growth cycles and then these downturns where a lot of issues are resolved uh previously. It was with the technology um in some cases and then in more recent years.

Including this year. It'll be with regulation and sort of like really weeding out sort of you know bad actors or people. That are are you know not operating in a way. That's safe for customers.

And so that's oh uh it looks like my my camera is out there. But yeah so so i'll just finish the thought so um. That is uh what we're seeing now. Which is basically regulation is is going to uh make things more stable and secure uh for for users and investors in the space and then uh once we get through this cycle uh.

We'll see continued growth. So i think it's part of the natural uh growth of the asset class and just with any type of uh you know newer technology. We tend to see these types of uh cycles. Very well well thank you both very much for your time ben from a wonderphi kevin o'leary go check out kevin o'leary's youtube channel as well i want to make it clear to everyone this video is not sponsored.

I don't do sponsored interviews and i thank you both so much for the time links to both of your websites in the description down below. If as the viewer you found this helpful consider sharing the video and we'll see the next one.