Hey everyone welcome back to another episode of the meet kevin show. Today, we've got a very special one, because we are going to go deep, we're going to ask some hard questions on cryptocurrencies nfts, with two legendary folks number one kevin o'leary from shark tank and, of course, investor and venture capitalist. And then, of course, we have jordan. Freed the ceo of immutable holdings.

Thank you both so very much for being here. Welcome aboard. I want to get started right away, so i want to start with cryptocurrencies. Obviously, bitcoin has been running.

We've crossed that 60 000 psychological threshold nfts, are all the rage right now. Crypto punks we've got many other nfts as well uh, jordan. I want to start with you. Where do you fit in like? How do you explain what the heck it is that you do to an average person when you're at a party like a kid's birthday party or whatever? How do you possibly explain to people what cryptocurrencies are and what it is that you do when 68 of hedge fund managers don't feel comfortable enough to invest in crypto, because they're clueless about it yeah? So first, thanks for having me kevin, it's a great question.

The way i like to think about it is crypto's like a cap table, there's never going to be more than 21 million bitcoin. I was part of the founding team of coin called hbar, which is part of the hedera hashgraph network. There's lots of tokens in the market, but really what makes crypto unique is that it's scarce, uh, so uh the first piece when people are coming into crypto. Obviously they want to accumulate as much as they can of the underlying protocols that they still think are going to be here in 5, 10 15 years, but beyond accumulation beyond just owning crypto in your portfolio.

I'm a firm believer. We have an asset management business. We advocate that people have some percentage of their portfolios with exposure to cryptocurrency. We believe there's so much more so whatever holdings, our whole philosophy is don't just own cryptocurrency own, the blockchain, and what we mean by that is take exposure to really exciting businesses.

Building in the blockchain space, so there's publicly traded. Bitcoin mine companies like uh hut, a and riot and hive that you can take exposure to coinbase is publicly traded. Uh voyager digital uh, galaxy digital. These are publicly traded, blockchain equity place.

Investors can take exposure to so we're big believers and beyond just holding cryptocurrency, which is interesting and exciting, and i hold some - and i know uh. Mr wonderful here hold some uh. It's really important to diversify through blockchain equity and that's uh i'll keep it at that. For the cocktail party uh, i gotcha okay, so uh kevin o'leary, i wan na know.

Last time we spoke, we were worried about blood coins in china, essentially with dirty mining and potentially separating clean mining from from dirty mining and how those clean coins could be more valuable. Now we've seen china essentially exit stage right and now they've banned transactions and mining in china. How does this affect your view of investing? Are we now worried still about finding clean coins versus not or can we just say, hey, let's, invest money with jordan into something like immutable holdings and get exposure across the board, maybe even own cryptocurrency directly. Where do you stand on that now? Well, let me address the esg issue, because you've brought up three different elements there.

So esg issue has not gone away. It's one of the reasons that major institutions are waiting for a resolution to it and there is one emerging and it's simply this. There are many pools of capital being accumulated to develop mining operations in places like western texas or in the nordic countries, where they can use a combination of solar and wind to mine coin and provide electricity for the grids in those regions. And the idea there is along the hot 8 line that jordan mentioned hud 8.

One of the reasons i own that stock is that the ceo there, a woman named jamie leverton, has committed to her shareholders that she will keep those coins that she mines sustainably. On her balance sheet, so an indirect way for me to own the coin, knowing with certainty it passes my compliance committee, that is looking at esg issues, sustainability issues, ethics issues and no different than many large institutions or sovereign funds, and indeed her stock trades. With the volatility of bitcoin, so it's an indirect way of solving that problem and there's at least four or five other projects uh, one of which i'm getting involved in that's going to mine sustainably in western texas, so that i think that resolves itself for the next 30, 40, 50 years, and so we'll see more and more institutional uh involvement. China was forecasted.

I mean they're they're trying to keep centralized control there, so bitcoin bitcoin doesn't fit into their world, or nor does this crypto and and they're trying to launch their own digital chinese currency of which the chance anybody else is going to own. That is zero. So it's! It's uh they're in a bit of a a squeeze box there, because in order to mine the efficiencies and productivity that you know, decentralized, finance, promises and cryptocurrencies promise to reduce, friction and cost and be a global solution for a lot of financial services. You got to be part of it, so if china wants to just do their own thing, that's fine, but they won't get any participation from anybody.

I mean the reason i would never own. That coin is, i don't know, who's watching and i'm pretty sure it's going to be the chinese government. So why would i let that happen uh to any of my assets, so i think they're going to get a lot of pushback and i'm just one voice and i'm sure they'll come around at some point now regarding owning immuno, my attitude about owning crypto and the Whole sector is, i have a discipline of diversification, i'm forced by mandate here to never have more than five percent in any one stock. This is on the equity portfolio or never more than 20, in any one sector and there's 11 sectors in the s p.

500. I consider crypto to be the 12th sector. It hasn't been deemed that yet by the s p, but it's coming, and so my view is: how do i get diversification? Well, jordan's company hold as the symbol. I'm a shareholder is diversification.

It's a series of assets on the chain, so why wouldn't i want that to me: it's just i'm investing in software productivity software. I invest in google, i invest in in microsoft. Why wouldn't i invest in immutable holdings, same thing, they're all the same to me and that's how i'm going to trade it now. Would you end up uh, jordan? I want to ask you when you're investing in various different blockchain technologies or minors? How are you balancing how much you're putting into minors versus let's say, altcoins or a blockchain tech? One of the things that i also notice is sort of a follow-up, and i want to actually hear an answer from both of you on this.

Is i noticed that with crypto miners uh, they a lot of their value, is in that they're holding a lot of their own cryptocurrency they're, holding their own bitcoin? For example, i interviewed the ceo of hud 8 and she talked about how grateful they are that they are hodlers of bitcoin but you're, paying six to seven times the market cap of the actual uh bitcoin they're holding so you're. Putting a lot of trust in that technology infrastructure they have on actually mining bitcoin. So i want to see how do you both value this? How do you value the bitcoin miners and how do you value these different blockchains you're? Investing in, like you, said jordan, you got to find the ones that are going to be here in five to ten years. So i want to start with you, jordan and then we'll go to kevin yeah so beyond just accumulating crypto.

What we bri and a lot of people have made a tremendous amount of wealth, just accumulating cryptocurrency and are sipping my ties on probably beaches not too far from the one i'm close to right behind me, but beyond doing that, there's a really there's a really great Investment coach - and we put this together. This is our operating thinking at immutable holdings, which is what are some of the businesses that we could build, that extend awareness, access and adoption of blockchain technology and digital assets that are native to them. So you're, absolutely right. Kevin people can take exposure to public equities that have indirect exposure.

You can buy micro strategy stock. Michael saylor has a huge amount of bitcoin on his balance sheet. There's a there's. A website called bitcointreasuries.org which actually published publishes a list of publicly uh traded, um stocks that have bitcoin or crypto assets on their balance sheet.

Uh and yes, you're going to pay some multiple, but for someone that doesn't know or isn't competent in managing a public private key pair. That's a really great alternative to actually owning crypto at unbeatable holdings, we're doing something very different. Today, we actually don't have cryptocurrency in our balance sheet. What we're building are profitable businesses, our breakout, blockchain brands like nft.com, and one eight hundred bitcoin we're building businesses that uh bring either awareness access or adoption to the space.

So, to give you an example, 1-800 bitcoin: it's a toll-free number we're going to provide mass-market education to people who call that number and provide them with bitcoin master classes and research products. On the nft side. We ourselves are adopting underlying blockchain technologies and on the asset management side, we're helping family offices and high net worth individuals that don't want to hold crypto native. We help them take exposure to funds that give them that exposure in an indirect way and we make money through management fees, so we are a way, a diversified way to take exposure to the entire sector.

Again, i would advocate that. Yes, crypto is an interesting part that part of your portfolio either holding it directly or indirectly through the bitcoin miners or some others. You will certainly pay a premium if you, if you go that route as you're pointing out but really diversifying and owning businesses. Coinbase is going to make money whether the price of bitcoin is going up or going down.

They make money on volatility. They make money on fees, that's what we mean by own blockchain equity, owned businesses that are going to do well in a bull or bear market cycle, okay and kevin o'leary. What do you think why why perhaps uh a fund? That's going to exp expose you to miners uh, where you are paying a little bit more of that multiple, as opposed to just maybe holding the coins directly. Well, the expectation um when you own the equity of the company, is that we'll become more and more efficient at mining coin and it'll get do a better job at doing it, and perhaps do it in where's a lot of value in a sustainable way.

I cannot own coin where i don't know the providence, because i also have to serve institutions that are not allowed to own coin that isn't sustainably mined. They have sustainability committees. We haven't resolved that yet so, rather than than get myself in a conflicted situation, i put the value in owning the hot aid stock and i've been buying her stock for a while. Now so you know in times of bear markets, it traded as low as six dollars and now i think it's 1415 and that just reflects the price of bitcoin's appreciation over the last 90 days.

And if the coin goes down so will her stock. So, but no one questions my owning that equity. They understand that she has been mining sustainably since she was awarded her first coin, so there's value there. She's also just recently raised another 150 million dollars.

I don't know what she's going to do with it, but i'm going to assume she's going to use it accretively, because she's, a good manager and i'll benefit from that as a shareholder. My whole point is, i don't need to own bitcoin natively only i can own it in other ways, and i do own some native coin that i know with its providence and so for me. It's i don't. I don't need the resistance and the headache and the the compliance officer barking at me.

I don't want that stuff and i don't i don't need it because i have other businesses that have to that. I have to be complying in all the time, so i'm no different than many other institutional clients that are concerned about this issue. So there's value in many different ways same with. What's going on with immunable, i mean there's, there's i have no everything there is compliant.

So you wouldn't believe how powerful this compliance committee is becoming in so many giant institutions. That's incredible! I want to know from both of you uh nfts. I know immutable and does a lot of work with nfts, even nft, gaming's, uh or yeah we're in the nft gaming space. How do we see nfts uh evolving over the next five to ten years? Is this something that is like the 2000 tech bubble? Or is this something that has lasting staying power and what makes nfts different? How should somebody getting into nft's value one nft over another start with you, jordan, yep, so kevin for your internet native you're spending a lot of your time on the internet.

I've been watching your videos for years now for the generation, that's internet native and spending an increasing amount of time online. The concept of buying an intangible digital item is not is not to uh is not a foreign concept for them. You've got kids that have been buying in-game swords or currencies in games like world of warcraft or runescape. When i was growing up, we actually used to sell runescape goal points until the makers of the game said: hey stop doing that.

That's our intellectual property, secondary markets have been forming around mmorpgs massive multiplayer online role-playing games, and second life was one of the first to actually and kevin mentioned. Compliance get money transmission licenses state to state. Actually, second, life still to this day has money transmission licenses. In all 50 states and three territories, they have a currency, called linden dollars and they've been the market maker, essentially selling linden dollars and land inside of that business.

So those are nfts to some extent. We've got games like upland uh, which is an nft game where you can buy a slanted side uh inside of it. What we're seeing happen in nfts right now. It's manifested in the form of art these jpegs, these gifs, these memes that are going viral, uh, board apes or crypto punks or women of wonder these collections are incredible and people are starting to figure out how to create utility for a photograph for basically a jpeg.

A piece of r we're starting there there's, no doubt that i i will. I won't say where we are in the bubble. If we are in a bubble at all, i think a lot of people on crypto twitter will chew me out. If i comment on that, but what i will say is that independent of of of of where we are in the market cycle, the opportunity for nfps is so much more than just art and intellectual property.

What literally everything we have? A value in the physical world, whether it's the title d to a piece of property like the office, i'm in right now, or whether it's the authenticity certificate to an fp journal or patek? Philippe? That mr wonderful wears on his wrist? On a shark tank episode, quite literally everything we own, a value in the physical world, is going to be represented in this digital world in the form of a token, and that, given the amount of time and increasing amount of time that we're spending our lives are Digital online we've got things like blue check marks. That said, know that this is an influencer. This is someone of credibility. This is someone who's on shark tank uh.

Given how much value we put in these intangible items, an increasing amount of capital and value is going to be stored in this empty economy. We're really proud to own nft.com. We absolutely are building ways to onboard new people to the nft ecosystem, to help both creators and collectors capitalize in this new world and uh, and we think marketplaces are a great start. So today we've got millions of users in the nft ecosystem.

Coinbase has got 68 million users that they just announced that they have. We are very much at the beginning of nfts very excited about what the future looks like kevin o'leary, jordan just mentioned the crypto community and uh. You know mentioning that if, if we uh touch on the potential downsides that there could be backlash in the crypto community kevin o'leary, do you ever feel like uh, you, you can't say anything wrong about crypto without being attacked, yeah, it's a very vocal community and that's Okay, it's it's! You know a lot of the people that were the early founders, feel they have some proprietary relationship with the community or with the assets themselves, and that's okay too, but if you really want to see bitcoin in a million dollars a coin, this has to be ubiquitous Across all different buyers, whether they're involved in crypto today or not, and the potential to get there and even see bitcoin at 100 000 by year end, is going to be an expanded market. So you know my view is there are many many many people that have not yet participated in crypto that over time will become more comfortable with it.

Certainly gen z is very active. There millennials, and even some baby boomers now see it as a store's wealth and they're allocating some portion of their net worth to it, but at the end of the day you know i look at it and say to myself what drives value in a market is Disruption and enhanced productivity, and so if you believe you can get that out of cryptocurrencies or decentralized finance, it will create value, and you heard a use case that jordan just referenced around watches. Let me give you some more metrics to that, because i'm very involved in the protocol to develop a standard for watch nfts. Every year there are 20 billion dollars of transactions in new and used watches they trade from one hand to another.

They move from one state to another when you have a very valuable piece, such as a patek philippe or a vintage rolex, or an fp journal, which is probably the hottest watch in the world right now before you purchase it in the secondary market. You have to get it authenticated because you don't know with certainty that it's real, maybe it's being held at a dealer in hong kong. You have to get it in bond all the way to new york. Have it looked at by a representative, either the maker or or an auction house that has this expertise to authenticate it, send it back to hong kong and then do the transaction that is incredibly inefficient and i've gone through that for decades as i've built my collection And i'm fortunate to know the world's largest watch collectors.

They have the same struggle, the same challenge collectively. You know, in conjunction with some of the authorities that oversee horology we're working together to try and set standards that then we can on right at nft.com, start to provide individual nfts for each collector's collection. I want every one of my pieces to have an nft associated with it that authenticates it into my estate. Even my insurance company wants that, instead of having to go through the arduous process of having it photographed and all of the paper accredited, i can have all that encased inside of an nft and simply send it to insurer and i'll get a discount rate.

If i can do that, that's what they've told me already so there's so many use cases for nfts where the physical asset is tied to the digital. For the sake of authenticity and deficiency. That's where we're going! That's incredible. I mean it sounds like kevin o'leary, you're, potentially talking about soon, maybe individual investors even being able to invest in a share of your watch on something like nft.com.

Am i going too far on that or am i going to grow? That's already happened to me. My watch that i wore the white steel white face daytona with the red band went to auction last year at an extraordinary price, and i only wish that i had the nft to that watch because i'll never have it again. Now i'm fortunate, i was able to buy another one, but that watch was on shark tank for 12 years. That was the red band watch and it has tremendous value with fans and many others have asked me: do you have a picture of it? I can have so that's what the nft will be.

My plan is to go back to the buyer. It was a charity auction for the one drop association and ask him if he would allow us to make an nft of that, because the demand is insatiable for that piece. Now, jordan, kevin o'leary just referred to bitcoin, potentially going to a million dollars as we sort of expand uh how many people get involved in cryptocurrencies and i think golly i mean if, if you can invest in kevin o'leary's watch via the blockchain, that's certainly going to Expand uh people's interest in cryptocurrencies jordan. How? How are you folks getting involved, because i know nft.com right now - you've got coming soon.

Your email address you've got nft gaming. You invest in various different public companies. I'm trying to wrap my head around what it is y'all do with crypto to me. It sounds like you do everything.

Can you touch a little bit on uh on on the future of nft.com and uh? Is it true? Are you sort of like a basket of everything like forget about a bitcoin futures etf? You could have a bas a little sliver of everything of cryptocurrency with you, so the best way to think about immutable holdings is that we are very much the first to build. The berkshire what we like to do is the berkshire hathaway a blockchain. Now berkshire hathaway is a holding company with very diverse holdings that aren't related to any one particular industry or sector right. They own geico they've got large holdings in america express and coca-cola they own.

Some apple stock, or at least it at one point and dairy queen right, nebraska furniture market added to the list. What we've decided is what, if we did, what the interactive corporation remember: barry diller back in the 90s building, one of the first internet rate holding companies with match.com ask.com angie's list. This was one of the first internet holding companies around the time of the dot com bubble and and there's a lot of strategic synergies between operating uh com companies. Right you can share accounting resources.

Maybe you can share a cfo if they're early stage up, you can share engineering teams, uh different ways to build merchant processing and check out funnels. There are a lot of strategic synergies between building blockchain businesses like 1-800 bitcoin, nft.com and immutable asset management. We wanted, and, and today are giving investors exposure to a holding company. That's got six subsidiaries ranging from uh just quickly.

The list is cbdc.com which stands for central bank digital currency hbar.com, which is the symbol of the hedera hashgraph network and network. I was part of the founding team, it's number 35 or 36 or 37 on coin market cap, depending on the day, uh we've got an advisory business where we've been brought in i've consulted with the monetary authority of singapore on um project ubin, launching their central bank. Digital currency i've met with you, know: c-suite at google, ibm boeing, deutsche telekom and them putting together strategies and how they're working on the space. That way is our team monetized, but our core thinking really kevin is around awareness, access and adoption.

If you want to own crypto, that's amazing and you can absolutely stop there, like, i said and set my ties on the beach. But what are the businesses that you could build that make blockchain and digital assets more valuable? The winklevoss twins did that really well. After the facebook settlement they took 11 million dollars, they dollar cost it into crypto, not even dollar cost they really just bought bitcoin below a hundred dollars. Today those holdings are worth billions of dollars, but they didn't stop there.

They could have stopped there they're now multi-billionaires, but they built gemini a compliant and regulated cryptocurrency exchange. That is a fiat to crypto on-ramp, that has millions of users and that made their own holdings more valuable. So when i say accumulation accumulation is great. That's the first.

A but the last three a is awareness adoption for us, that's 1 800 bitcoin building awareness, helping make bitcoin and blockchain a less intimidating, subject: building on-ramps access, helping people access in a compliant way these regulated crypto markets and adoption. We ourselves are young native platform builders, building platforms native to many blockchains, like the hedera network, like solana like ethereum and nfg.com aspires to get lots of users and have them use blockchains in some cases, not even know that they're using it. So you know you spoke about a million dollar bitcoin. That is absolutely within the realm of what's possible here, just given one, i think where we are in the adoption curve.

If you look at the adoption curve of bitcoin versus the adoption curve of the internet, we've got to be in 1994 1995, just in terms of sheer peak number of people that are on these networks, uh, the actual adoption curves. If you look at the charts are, are quite similar, so we think it's very early. Gold is what a 10 11 trillion dollar market cap and to take paul, tudor jones's words uh. He describes this in a white paper, it's even better than gold.

So if it's better than gold, i think we're talking about a market cap even bigger than that. So half a million to a million is absolutely within the realm of what i think is possible in this ecosystem. No uh kevin o'leary. I want to ask you because jordan just talked about gemiini gemini has a gemini coin, a uh, stable coin and that's uh, backed by a dollar and a bank account somewhere, that's fdic insured.

But a lot of folks who hold the gemini coin do so so they can earn yields five, six, seven, eight percent on their stable coin, and they see this as almost a high yield savings account uh. But a lot of them aren't familiar that when they opt into that sort of uh yield. What they're really doing is they're lending out their coin, and so concerns have come up that. How many times are these gemini coins or stable coins being lent out uh and if they're being rehypothecated over and over and over again, is there a potential that the crypto market is 10 20 x as leveraged as a traditional finance? Or is that not so much of a concern kevin o'leary? What's your take on that? No, i mean you're raising an issue around stable coins.

There are other stable coins, obviously usdc included tether. The regulator has uh spoken onto on this issue just only three weeks ago. Regarding the concept that stable coins are, you know being treated like money market funds when you, for example, sell your stock in a traditional brokerage account very often you're swept into a money market fund, while it waits in cash and maybe you're, yielding today. 23 24 basis points but uh that is backed by dollars and very short duration, uh government credits in most cases and and the same issue is being debated around stable coins.

And so what i anticipate happening because you're right. The reason that let's just take usdc one that i'm more familiar with because i actually use it corporately, you know managed by circle. Um they've been growing 10x every year. They started with 100 million and today there's over 30 billion dollars with usdc, and yet it hasn't been adopted institutionally.

Yet there are some high net worth family offices, hedge funds, that do stake it or lend it as you suggested, and the current yields on that are around 5.8 to 6.4 percent. And i know that, because i just signed three more stakes this morning and i'm using the circle platform to do that now: it's it's not a huge amount of dollars because we're still in the uh i was the one of the first business accounts that they opened As a pioneer to help get that going - and it took me six months to get my own internal compliance department on board and another two months to get my external auditors to sign my statements so that then i could fulfill my obligation to regulators in various geographies. Where we're using this strategy - and so we are nowhere yet on stable coins in terms of it becoming an institutional product, the most likely scenario, in my view - and it's a personal opinion - is that circle who has the 30 billion will end up being licensed as a Bank and have to comply the same way. Banks do to their money market accounts, and that would solve a lot of problems.

It would allow me to go to a full weighting of usdc right now to get it through my compliance. I have to treat it like a stock, it's not a stock, it's a it's a proc in the us dollar, and yet i can't get my own compliance. People to agree so we're very nascent in this process very, very early, but the fact that i'm going through all of these headaches is because you're right, i can make six percent, and i can't do that anywhere else. And i and i have to make something over 2.1 because that's inflation, so there's a lot of interest here: uh kevin o'leary, just a quick follow-up, uh regulation gary gensler a few weeks ago compared regulation in the cryptocurrency market to regulation in cars when we finally had Cars get regulated, we had stop signs, we had uh crosswalks and traffic lights, uh car adoption skyrocketed.

Do you think the same thing is true or will be true for cryptocurrency? I think you. You basically just said that, essentially, once you get more regulation, you'll be able to do a lot more with it. Are you expecting that that regulation would actually broaden how many people will invest in in crypto assets and then increase those prices subsequently? Yes, i do and that's the whole premise by which i'm investing immunible holdings. I think everything to do with the internet, whether it be a minor whether it be circle, whether it be immunible, whether it be a wonderful another.

Recent investment of mine and decentralized finance. These are infrastructure place for the long term. Now either you believe in cryptocurrencies and you believe in decentralized finance. You believe in what an nft is, or you don't.

But if you do, then you have to make an allocation decision and really what i'm hoping to have happen is the regulator regulates because they are, i don't think the the genie is out of the bottle. Now we're not when you got 30 plus billion dollars worth of stable coin out there in just one usdc name, that's a huge indication that there's institutional interest that yet hasn't been that met demand, and so the bottom line here is this: is software development? The whole thing is software development. What makes the country competitive is technology which is primarily a combination of firmware and software development. The regulator knows this: we want to lead the charge and decentralize finance as a country.

We want to lead the charge in deciding which of these currencies and payment systems go international. We want to be the developers and we want to maintain the pace and the innovation and the disruption. We certainly don't want the chinese doing that. So it's a competitive race, they've taken a shot with their own currency, which i mentioned i would never own, but at the same time the rest of the world still uses the us dollar as a settlement vehicle.

If we can make a digital version of that in usdc or something similar to it, that will become the standard globally. The regulator knows that and they will continue to march towards regulating it. In my opinion, jordan, kevin o'leary just talked about how blockchain technology is really software development. Is it possible that this software development blockchain becomes? We find one standard that just functions so well that it ends up becoming a monopoly and essentially replaces 99 of other blockchains.

Or do you see the market as much more fragmented, where certain blockchains will be beneficial for certain things and people might use uh the ethereum network for one thing or the cardano network for another thing and who knows maybe bitcoin's future network for something else yeah? So we're already seeing the fragmentation happen. Solidity started as the way to do smart contracts, but, if we're being honest, there's much better more efficient ways to do smart contracts, solano's come up with better ways to do it. You can have a java application run, a smart contract which is basically an atomic swap in a much better way than even using solidity, which is very expensive and burdensome to use, as witnessed by the fees uh that we're seeing on the on the ethereum network. But what i think you'll end up, having is networks optimized for certain things: you'll have a network optimized just for nfts.

I think you're gon na have networks optimized just for stable coins. I think you'll have networks optimized just for really great governance and really great compliance. One of the reasons we built hedera was to introduce really great governance and compliance basically give regulators a tool set to be able to bind policy with a particular platform and a jurisdiction. The nodes on the hedera network are run by google ibm boeing, deutsche telekom nomura, unlike the anonymous nodes, and some of these other networks which make regulators just more comfortable.

The nodes are in nemours data center. No more is a regulated banking institution running a node on a public blockchain network and can enforce certain policies on those nodes. So i uh really where i think this is going, is you're going to have works, optimized and specialized in those areas. Now you may have multiple nft networks, but smart contracts and nfts, mostly nfts, are smart contracts.

The big common standard way of doing them is erc721s in the marketplace. That's the solidity standard that ethereum introduced. That's very burdensome on the memory of a node on that particular network and the more you have in ram or memory on those networks. You deprecate performance, transactional performance.

So it's going to be difficult to be really great at micro payments and really great at smart contracts. I think you're gon na have networks specializing, but we'll definitely have multiple networks. There will never be another bitcoin, though bitcoin is really our store of value network and uh there. It really is digital gold uh.

I think you'll have a general purpose. Application network like a hedera and ethereum an avalanche and solano, there will be a few and i think, probably one or two win on the nft side and the stable coin side. That's fascinating! Yeah! I mean there's such a public debate and and such uh loyalty. You could feel it it's almost like your football team, in terms of which blockchain is going to win and do everything, but i like what you're saying that we're probably going to see that fragmentation continue.

Uh. Now you hold public companies. Do you hold any robin hood? They make some money off crypto transactions uh. Personally, i uh - i, i don't publicly disclose the the the public equity plays or investments that i make immutable holdings isn't a structure where we're not making balance sheet investments.

Think of us like a publicly traded venture studio. We like to make bets so, for example, we acquired nft.com at the beginning of this year and we decided hey. You know one. It's got to be one of the most highly sought after domain names in the entire world.

Right now, i literally field conversations and inquiries on a daily basis to sell that. Well, we have built, we have an incredible engineering team. These are former facebook and google and stanford engineers that have joined our team just uh. It's a tremendous effort behind building what we think is going to be a really amazing consumer product for collectors and creators, and that's our specialty, we're business builders.

I built consumer software brands, that's where we're focusing in terms of just making uh making bets. Maybe we'll do a venture fund where we we make early stage equity-based investments we haven't, ruled out likely that wouldn't be on a balance sheet. That'd probably be in our asset management business at a certain point in time uh, but but for for us it's you know we're we're the diversification plan, we're the blockchain holding company, the first uh, the first one to public markets, got it uh kevin o'leary. Do you hold any alt coins directly, or are you mostly investing in uh funds, for example like immutable holdings, no immutable holdings? I've invested in as an infrastructure play through their equity and inherent on in the value of that equity is what they have on their balance sheet.

I i also own multiple positions in various coins and tokens and other chains and level one level twos um. What i've decided to do with this situation? I recently got involved um as an investor and then a paid spokesperson for ftx is. I was looking for a platform to manage all these assets on that i could get my compliance department on board, for i described what i went through just to get usdc on side with circles, infrastructure um - i i did the same thing with ftx and so at Some point in in the near future, before the end of the year, what i don't want to be accused of or ever be associated with, is this idea of promoting this uh? You know some some some coin, that uh is is unknown and very thinly traded and all that kind of thing - i don't do that, i'm an investor i buy these positions for long-term reasons and really don't rebalance outside of just keeping the weightings under five percent or Whatever and so i've decided to disclose my holdings um all at once and say: here's what i own, i own a lot of things now and um and and then just keep it transparent, because i don't like a lot of this cowboy stuff that goes on in The crypto space promoting this or that you've never heard of that's that's not good for the long-term stability of crypto, it's fun almost game-like in some nature and and i'm not against it, but but that's day trading to me versus long-term uh. You know enhancement of productivity.

Again, i look at all of it as software i'm i invest. I've came out of the software industry, i understand it. I've been involved in it. My whole career life uh, but now i'm looking at it in terms of enhancing productivity in all kinds of different sectors, and it is my stern belief and it's a personal opinion and the reason you would want to do this.

My target is to get the seven percent of of the of of the operating companies holdings in crypto and in equities of cryptos by year end. But you would do this because you believe at some point that the 12th sector of the s p will become crypto and decentralized finance. I believe that i, you know, i'm not saying it's going to happen at any time soon, but there's 11 sectors in the economy, including real estate, which was added recently, and i think crypto will make it there too so you're, investing or betting. If you want to put it that way that this will become a new sector in our economy and it'll, be here forever got it wow.

So no, no shiba inu shout out from kevin o'leary, but that's all right, so um i we're running out of time. I want to ask both of you: i want to start with kevin o'leary and then jordan. I want to ask both of you about 45 to 60 percent of folks mention that they invest in cryptocurrency as a hedge for inflation or against inflation. Obviously, uh inflation has been much more persistent than it has been transitory uh.

However, there are some concerns that at some point in the future, we might head towards low inflation or potentially deflation. If we go into a deflationary environment, is there a risk to cryptocurrency prices? Falling substantially jordan, what's your take? Who i'm not a macro economist? Let me be the first to disclose that what i see happening now and you have to go back to read the bitcoin white paper and understand the commentary. There's a great book called the book of satoshi, where a group of people collected literally all the comments of the people that use the satoshi nakamoto handle and the bitcoin talk, forums, um and uh, and and really just curated. All of it.

People were really upset during the 2008 financial crisis, leading into all that bank stimulus and all of those bailouts bitcoin is absolutely reactionary to the 2008 financial crisis, where people felt disenfranchised at the bankers that literally took us to the brink of a financial armageddon. We're getting all of this bailout money when people lost jobs there were people committing suicide, just absolute tragedies being wiped out financial institutions, people losing their entire life savings for honestly, reckless uh reckless decisions made by the people managing some of the biggest banks in the world. Crypto came you have to understand that crypto came from that these people call themselves cyberpunks, they're native a lot of them operate anonymously on 4chan and on reddit and, as you mentioned, uh kevin crypto's tribal. That's not that's not going away, because this is the latest space race.

It's the modern space race in a war of adoption, uh and people trying to become the de facto platforms out there uh. It is well known and talked about in the crypto ecosystem. That 40 of all dollars in circulation right now were printed in the last 12 months. People are monitoring the us money, supply and people are very concerned very, very concerned.

People are voting with their dollars right now, they're deciding to take stimulus money or to take the money that they're making from the major appreciation in their public equity portfolios and to move it in things like this new uh bito, the pro shares bitcoin etf people are Betting, a hundred thousand bitcoin it's well talked about. I believe that we're gon na see it either by the end of this year and q, one of next year uh, oh, i i i i i won't speak for what i think will happen in deflationary period again. I don't see myself as somebody who's qualified to comment on that. I look at the asset class over a 10 20 30 year period, where i think we're going to continue to see.

Adoption here is with a growing mistrust for institutions and people managing central banks. A growing mistrust among the citizens of many different uh economies. I agree with kevin. I don't think that this digital remember this digital chinese uh currency is going to gain adoption uh.

What people want in a central bank, digital currency, is transparency to the money supply they want scarcity. That's why people are buying bitcoin. That's why people buy hr. That's why people buy salon on ethereum and all these coins they're scarce, whereas dollars can be recklessly printed shares by the way tesla stock elon can capitalize and issue new tesla stock and by the way, gold and silver they can always find more gold and silver.

So when you look at cash, more can be printed. When you look at gold and silver more can be discovered. When you look at um, when you look at, you know again shares just. You can obviously dilute a cap table uh.

You cannot do that in digital assets. You cannot do that in cryptocurrency, at least for most of them, and that is the tremendous property that people are demanding. That's where the demand for this is coming from so um. I i.

I can only see this growing from here. Well yeah, i mean it's, it's very interesting. I mean you're right, i mean we printed 40 uh upwards of 40 percent of all the currency, that's in circulation. Now our velocity of money has plummeted the amount of times people are circulating money because maybe they're saving or investing more, but it makes you wonder, kali if people rotated back to the amount of spending we had back in 2019 velocity money pop back up, we'd see Inflation off the charts it'd be incredible: uh kevin o'leary, your thoughts, uh and i know we've talked about it before, but i want to hear your updated thoughts and now that we've got the taper coming this inflation's lasting longer or do we care if we see inflation? Continuing a deflationary environment, any risk to crypto, or are we going to a million over the next 10 to 20 years? Here? I think the value of of bitcoin will continue to increase over time and maybe we'll beat the indices.

The traditional equity and fixed income indices, and that's why you should, if you consider that, have some allocation to it, which would not be a bad idea, and i don't think you have to put ever you know, bet the farm and only owned bitcoin. You can own a lot of different coins, tokens and infrastructure equities as we talked about, but you know having no allocation to it at all. In a portfolio an operating company like mine is to say that you don't believe in any of it and i'm simply not that person anymore. I was very skeptical at the beginning, but as things changed and the regulators changed and became more open to it, so did i and i i think, regarding the inflation debate, um there's a huge.

You know discussion going on with money managers globally as to whether this is transitory inflation caused by broken supply chains, for example, if you're building a car in america and you used to get all of your parts from asia, and now 30 of them are no longer Available or stuck on a ship outside of outside of the lax airport or uh, you know outside of the port, in los angeles, which is a horrific situation. You're going to source those same nuts and bolts stateside at a 30 increase in cost and that's part of what we're seeing in the inflation run. But if that's true and we fix the supply chain which we're hoping we're going to be doing over the next 24 months, that will be you know transitory. However, not everybody agrees with that scenario and that's why the debate is ensuing and maybe that's one of the reasons you're seeing this new fresh highs or close to it on bitcoin and some of the other uh digital assets, starting to move as well.

You you really don't know, because bitcoin has not yet proven itself to be an alternative asset class or counter cyclical asset class to a correcting market. If the market were to go down 5 000 points tomorrow, you would probably see a correction of bitcoin as well, so it hasn't made that transition, yet whether it will in the future isn't unknown, but to have zero allocation to it seems um. You know a bad idea, i think you need you have to decide what your risk tolerance is, and your your tolerance for volatility itself and then make your decision. What you're going to own and i've done that and my target i've disclosed, will be seven percent of the year and it could go to 20 in the years ahead.

We'll see what happens! That's incredible! That's an incredible evolution and uh. Thank you for having a flexible mindset, uh and uh. It's fascinating to see you increasing your allocation, uh, one very quick follow-up, and then i want to ask your final thoughts. Kevin o'leary.

Last time we spoke, you said you were somewhere around 30 cash. Have you allocated more to crypto now, since we last spoke or where's your cash going? No, my cash remains very, very high, because we've also changed our allocation um between equities and fixed income from 50 50 to 70 30.. So we had to sell a lot of fixed income assets. Wow i'm working hard to deploy this cash.

I mean when you're deploying um. You know a significant position like that. You don't do it overnight. You weigh it into the market in different asset classes.

You it's primarily driven by the very large sale i made in commercial real estate yeah over an 18-month period down from 31 percent of the of the holding company to eight, and so we spent decades building that portfolio cap rates got too low. For my comfort and i decided to sell the majority of it, and so it's going to take me a while to deploy this capital in the meantime, i'm very frustrated with the cash desks that i use and i use them all over the world. Offering me 21. 22 23 24 basis points on an annual basis, which is why i've gotten involved in usdc and continue to uh work with the circle people to develop that platform to be compliant.

For my needs for clarity for folks watching that is less than one quarter of one percent of a yield on kevin o'leary's cash, and that is very frustrating uh jordan. I want to hear final thoughts from you, uh cryptocurrency, uh hundred thousand. You know bitcoin hundred thousand bitcoin a million. I wan na hear a little bit more about how people can invest in you, ticker symbol company.

Tell me more about that. We'll go to kevin o'leary for his final thoughts and then we're off uh. Again, thanks for having me uh kevin uh, it's been a fantastic conversation uh. I i we're immutable holdings.

You can go to immutableholdings.com our ticker symbols hold. This is not financial advice. Do your own research, what we're merely saying is that uh beyond just owning cryptocurrency, having equity exposure to whether it's the bitcoin miners, whether it's voyager or galaxy or hut aids kind of mentioned on this show. Do your research speak with a financial advisor? There are equity exposure plays for you to take indirect exposure to the sector.

I do agree with kevin uh o'leary that i do think that we're looking at what is going to become the 12th sector on the s p, i do think we'll see trillion dollar blockchain businesses at some point in the future. If you look at where coinbase is uh they're only a 20x from where they are right now and when you look at 68 million global users on a platform like coinbase ftx uh, that kevin is now o'leary is now involved in here in the united states. Getting their compliance uh licenses in place growing their team uh sponsoring things like the miami heat stadium. I really think that you're going to see a tremendous growth in this particular sector sure there will be market cycles, bitcoin corrections, ups and downs, but companies like ftse coinbase make money when crypto prices go up and down, they make their money in volatility.

So we're really excited about that um and uh. You can follow us on social and uh yeah. I think i think bitcoin is going to go to the moon and i'm excited to just be along for the ride. What what's your social uh jordan freed is the best place to follow me on twitter? I tweet about the market immutable holdings hbar all the above, okay, awesome, yeah, that's actually very interesting.

Coinbase is a 68 billion dollar market cap right now, tesla just crossed a one trillion dollar market cap uh and uh and you're thinking we're going to see uh, basically cryptocurrency companies, the size of tesla, very, very bullish, that's incredible, and and not to interrupt you. If you guys remember palm pilots, i just saw this article literally 20 years ago, palm pilot, the company behind the palm pilot, was valued at more than apple in google combined. So when you look at where uh, when you look at where we've gone like no one uses pawn pile anymore, think about 20 years from now, i think it's out of the realm of possibility that coinbase could be as valuable, if not more so, wow kevin o'leary. Final thoughts cryptocurrency to the moon - i i think the key uh to getting involved in it, regardless of your age and what demographic you're in is education um.

I feel the same way about investing, there's certain principles of diversification that you should always adhere to, regardless of what asset class or what sector the economy that you play in uh and the same for crypto. So we've discussed many different ways during this conversation to to be involved from the equities of companies that mine bitcoin to those that are building infrastructure like uh immutable holdings, uh that that is another way to do it. Um wonderful is another one. There's lots of different companies that are they're involved in in this, but it's really about educating yourself and and not, and and getting diversification in your portfolio.

It's not just about bitcoin and ethereum anymore. It just isn't there's just too much other software being developed. That has tremendous productivity potential and i think exposure to that makes sense. It's incredible, jordan from immutable holdings and kevin o'leary.

Thank you very much. If you could both just stand by for one moment, everybody else, if you found this video, helpful, consider sharing the video and subscribing and we'll see in the next one. Thank you.