Hey welcome back to the podcast. You probably heard that the real estate market is well bananas completely on fire um, as we sit here today. Most of you know that there are actually more real estate professionals working than there are homes for sale. That's a startling number and we also know that there's nearly four million buyers that desperately want to buy a home and there simply is not enough inventory for them.

I would call that pressure pressure. Think about that word. So there's pressure for you to get your buyer's offers accepted. There's pressure not only to win the listing but heck to like get it at the right price, the right terms and ultimately, the right fee.

There's pressure to get the deal together and not lose your income in the process. There's pressure to even win an appointment, there's there's just so much pressure in the market right now, so i've asked the guy who has a very different perspective on pressure to join us on this podcast. You know him. Chris voss, the world famous fbi hostage negotiator, uh, turned incredible author of this book, which i'm sure you've bought and read and listened to multiple times and maybe checked out his master class chris has you know, become an author, a trainer, the ceo of the black swan Group he's done so much to help so many become a better negotiator.

So chris you uh you ready for some pressure today, yeah, let's see what we could do, huh. What's your phrase, pressure makes diamonds. Pressure always makes diamonds, that's right, so we also have jeff mays. If you're, if you're watching you see his smiling face otherwise you're gon na hear his voice jeff's been on a lot of podcasts so jeff.

They know who you are, let's just jump right in so so chris. I was thinking about our our last podcast and the the sort of the thought that i wrote down is going through. My head is in your world. Is there been any new distinctions, any any new things uncovered about negotiations? It's my favorite question like what have you learned about negotiations since we talked last yeah, i think uh, you know, i don't know how much we talked about proof of life last time, the favorite of the fool.

If uh, if you don't, you know, the phrase is, if you don't know who the fool in the game? Is it's probably you yeah um, you know i had no, i we really had no idea how how appropriate that is to negotiations, business opportunities, real estate agents, uh seeking to work for clients. I mean when you understand really what the buyer's journey is. You know the client's journey in making a decision. It really changes the game entirely and um.

For example, if you just fire bad clients before you ever get them, your life is going to be a lot easier. True, true true true, so so i i heard you but didn't hear the first part. What did you call it again, proof of life or, and then you kind of said what does that mean? What does that mean right? So in hostage negotiation uh there were two issues. If we were speaking to purported kidnappers number one, do they have the hostage at all and number two? Do they intend to release them to you? They intend to make a deal with you and in the private sector.

Um are they? Are they looking for a deal and are they looking for the deal with you now they they might just be looking to kick the tires, not change out of status quo, um a lot of people. You know they want to list their home on one of these websites, which means they're not looking to go with any agent, but that doesn't mean they're not going to pump you as an agent for a lot of information right. So are they looking for a deal? Now the second issue is, let's say, looking for an agent in the decision journey by the time they talk to you, you are either the favorite or the fool in either case. There's no reason to cut your fee like real estate agents that do their job are a bargain.

They are worth their weight in gold in in in the business sector. Finders fee is 10. You bring somebody a deal, you help them consummate the deal. You know you made it happen: that's ten percent uh real estate agents.

What are they getting five six percent if they get both sides depending upon the environment, i mean at full fee. A real estate agent is a ridiculous bargain. So again, whether or not you're, the favorite of the fool when you interact with the client you, you got no business, cutting your fee as a first move yeah, and that is, and if they pick you, if they, if they pick you or not, it ain't gon Na be because of your fee, so you were, you know, cutting your fee is just cutting your own throat. They may have already decided to give you the business, so they may test you sure to see if you cut your fee like, even though i want you you want, you want to charge me less.

I'm gon na give you a chance to charge me less yeah. If i want you in the first place, it's for other reasons other than the fee and that's proof of life is what that is yeah. I i understood it when you said it, but i wanted to get the business understanding of it, and that was okay. So we're gon na for my friends that are listening or watching right now we're gon na do a bunch of role plays today kind of continuing on with what chris and i did what i think is now like, maybe a year and a half ago, um, but I want to go a different direction first, so i asked you kind of what's new and we're going to circle back into that.

I wrote down this question thinking about you this morning, like how much negotiating is done in a family business. You know, and - and you you know, your son works with you. I've worked with my pops. I work with my wife.

We, you know, i've got people that are family, that aren't blood family. How much negotiation is done in that scenario. What have you learned for the person? That's listening right now that works for their spouse, who you know, has some logical negotiation strategy, they're trying to use and they're like honey? If you don't do it, like, you know, you're sleeping on the couch. What what have you learned to help people in these family businesses negotiate on behalf of for and sometimes against the people? They love the most yeah? Well, um uh anytime you're trying to influence somebody's thinking you're in a negotiation, because, if you're trying to influence their thinking, you're trying to influence an action action is time times a commodity.

That's the most common commodity in negotiations is time occasionally there's money, but most people think just because money's on, if money's not on the line, it's not a negotiation. If you're trying to get somebody to take an action to change their mind to do something different you're in a negotiation period, yeah now um family uh, it takes longer to sink in um. Like you know my son, who runs my business, you know he wants me to to get me thinking. We use negotiation skills on each other, all the time, because our heart's in the right place, the real issue is intent.

Yeah. You know i'm i'm, but i mean you need to think about it overnight. I certainly know if i'm trying to influence his thinking. I got to give him space to think about it, probably more space that i might need to give to somebody who's, not so close to me yeah.

So it's it's the same. It takes more patience with family because you know family relationship is a convoluted relationship. That extends anywhere from 20 to 60 years, depending upon how long the two of you have been together. So that just means it just takes sometimes a little longer to sink into the neural circuitry right.

So i think patience it's using one of the things i'm going to ask you in a minute is like what are the five to six like essentials, like you know getting rid of yes and getting to know but jeff before i jump into all that you got A question for chris i'm sitting there you wrote down uh, you know the time is so important. I think that real estate agents don't view their time as that important. They don't look at it that way and uh like how wouldn't what what what can we do to like. You talked about confidence a little bit it's more about.

I love what you said. You know. The first move is not giving away your commission and i think, that's where agents usually go to, so what can they do to not give away that commission right off the bat yeah? Well um, you know you start you pivot away from commission right away. You start to you start to ask about you know what are you trying to get out of this? I mean how.

How did you and i get into this conversation in the first place - um you? You want to begin to have a deeper understanding of them to understand what they're really after now now there there may be a commission issue as a last resort right, but they've already, if you, if you look at any data on people's decision journey, they've collected a Lot of information you know, they've cr collected a criteria, they've collected a list of favorites and people. They really want to go with and that's influenced by a ton of stuff other than price. Do they know you does a trusted advisor know you, you know you, you need to really understand how you got into this conversation in the first place before you start making changes yeah and and and they want to tell you you know they just want to know Whether or not they're wasting their time telling you so is it a little bit more. Like tell tell me more tell me more asking those kind of questions.

Where are you coming from tell me more yeah, you know really it's mostly um uh, it's mostly keyed around how questions to start with how and what yeah i mean. Tell me more is a well-intentioned phrase, but you can you can wordsmith those words to put in a little more deference, because tell me more by definition, is the command. Terry moore is a sentence that ends with a period that is a command and there's great power and deference and the higher level talent wants. The power and influence that deference brings, whereas commanding, tends to be people a little more insecure right on a command because they're they're control, freaks they're, afraid of being out of control.

The power movers understand the secret to gaining the upper hand that the negotiation is giving the other side the illusion of control and how and what questions give the illusion of control of the other side. So how do we get into this conversation? What are you looking for two questions? Yeah, i love it yeah all right, i'm gon na go a different direction. So chris i i asked a bunch of our top clients, some of the great team leaders in the us and canada and mexico, about some of the struggles they were facing and where they could use some some chris vos isms. If there, if there was such a thing and the thing that kept being brought up, was, we feel like we're, we're really good sales people.

We went from this solo entrepreneur to now running a team of two five ten, fifty a hundred two 200 and and they recognize that every day they are in a negotiation with people on their team negotiating for the salesperson to do their job for them to use The software that the company has provided to to do all the tasks that are required to have a successful real estate, transaction and and the the note that they asked is like what advice do you have for leaders looking to negotiate more greatness from their teammates yeah? Um short answer is going to be less direction, more inspiration and inspiration through getting people to think for themselves, based on your guidance as opposed to telling them the answer. Now a real uh um, a real bad habit for a leader because they know what should be done is to tell somebody what to do. Like look, let me let me short your learning curve here. I've been down this road before do this and you're trying to get people to succeed sooner yeah problem is um.

The mental downloading of the knowledge as a result of direction is inefficient, like if you want to tell somebody to do something and have them get it. A long time ago, i couldn't tell you the source of this data, but for it to sink in, you got to tell them 19 times, yeah, there's a whole bunch of reasons. Why a lot of time, a long time ago, ronald reagan, said if you're, explaining you're losing now guiding them to. That seems highly inefficient because you look, let me tell them once and i'll have it and i may have to guide him two or three times right, but two or three times is not as many as 19 right and that's why great management of people, great leadership Of people appears to be highly inefficient, but if you guide them once they once they get it, they got it.

You know they feel like they discovered it themselves and then it bakes into the brain much more quickly and effectively, and you it's a it's. The delay that saves time interesting, interesting helena is not selling yeah. I love it yeah! Well, i like it, it's it's. It's inspirational, hey, let's reimagine what it would look like.

You know, tell me what you're saying right: light somebody's brain up a little bit now: they're thinking! That's what you want! You want them to think. Yeah love it for all. My team leaders out there. I hope you're paying attention that was for all of you, so so chris i was thinking it would be awesome if we could do a few minutes before we could jump into a bunch of role plays and scenarios which, like the last time, we did that podcast People just ate that up.

They were just more of this. Please, like we just want to hear how he handles all these different real world real estate scenarios for us, but but i thought maybe for the person - that's listening for the first time that maybe it's the one person in sales who has not read your book and They need to go, buy it today and you know cross that off their list um if there was like five or six or seven chris vos essentials. I think of the fm dj voice and you know getting to the know getting to that's right and feeling understood. Like all these things that have always resonated for me and your message, but i want to flip it to you and just say, take like as much time as you want just give us like what are the five to six things.

Every person has to understand now that you've written this book and trained a gazillion people yeah well uh. First of all i mean let the other side talk. First, you know let let them go first. You know there are a lot of people for a variety of different reasons that feel like if they're, not speaking, they're out of control, they're afraid of what the other side is going to say, they're, not speaking, they don't feel like they're connecting you know the the Feeling of speaking with someone caught makes them feel like they're connecting and if they're not talking, they don't feel like they're connecting when, in fact the opposite is true.

Uh. The other side feels like they're, connecting when they're talking with you to you that you're listening. So let the other side go first. Now we had a phrase in hostage negotiation.

You know: what's it gon na, take to get the hostage taker to come out? He'll tell you, which means you get the other side talking, there's a pretty good chance. They're gon na outline the deal for you yeah and then, when whenever they say something you like you go like wow, it's brilliant when in fact you just waited for them to suggest your idea. So there's so many advantages to hearing the other side out. First, it also makes sure that you're on the right track.

You know you got a set of um uh presumptions. You know i hate the word assumption and i can't remember what the term that mark cuban used when i was talking to him a few weeks ago on fireside, but it was a different word which meant he he's always testing his understanding. You know he does an analysis before he gets into a deal. He makes some emotional intelligent, intelligent, emotionally educated guesses, but then he's constantly testing the other side uh to make sure that he's not his anal analysis isn't wrong.

And how do you test the other side? They got to talk, you got it, you got to prompt them into talking and give you the data. So you know the short answer is let the other side go first, you know let them lay some stuff out. You may find some stuff that you love um, that there's an emotional advantage for you to agree to versus you proposing cool chris. Let me ask you this: how important is it to write down these questions, or at least practice, because i know most people in the audience are like? Oh, i can't i can't come up with this question right off the bat like they feel they get stuck in a moment.

How would you handle that or how important is practicing and writing the questions? Yeah, i know i. I love that question man uh, not not. It's extremely important and you know, take it one step further. It's better mental exercise to hand write than it is to type your brain is engaged in a completely different way via handwriting you're, more focused, you're, more creative and yeah handwriting.

Even if you don't we're taking plenty of notes right now, yeah you don't even got to keep your notes like at one point in time. I ended up with so many notes, i'm like. Ah, you know what am i supposed to do with all this and then i realized the mere fact that i hand wrote it in the first place, increase the likelihood that i could uh replicate the thinking in the moment right. So you know the the type of stuff you're talking about think through a couple of scenarios, write down a couple of responses to get the other side talking.

You know something called we call. A label sounds like that's important to you sounds like you put a lot of thought into that it sounds like you've been thinking about this for a long time. You know you hand write those, then the chances that they'll spontaneously come out of your mouth in a in a moment are are much higher love it. So if, if the first one is seek first to understand right, let them speak first, what's two all right, uh! So then um uh you got ta.

Then then you got ta confirm you understand you got ta make them feel understood. Like you, understanding is step one in route to making somebody feel understood. Uh. You know my son brandon.

He just came up with this uh off the top of his head a couple days ago. It's not a sin to get it wrong. It is a sin to not make them feel understood, which means, as you're, trying to demonstrate that understanding chris, it's not a sin to get it wrong. It is a sin to not make them feel understood yeah.

So you know your your. Your first understanding is you're. Going to feed it back with some errors, that's not a sin and people hate getting stuff wrong, which is one of the biggest reasons that they're afraid to articulate what they think the other person is hearing, because, oh, if i'm wrong, they think i'm stupid or if They openly correct me in front of others. That's humiliating it'd be embarrassing.

You know, you know the phrase, it's not about you, uh the cliche. So when you get corrected, you feel humiliated. You know, uh people, people would literally the phrase i died of embarrassment. That's how bad embarrassment is we'd rather die yeah, but if it's not about you, when the other side corrects you, what do they feel they feel elevated.

They have this higher status and they don't realize that it was you that conferred the higher status. That's why there's so much power and deference when you give someone a higher status via deference? You are the person who conferred that esteem to them and that's why in in in so many cases you know just you know: um um, uh, shameless flattery. We hate it when we see it being done to somebody else, but we love it when it's being loved. Should you repeat what you just heard from them yeah or what you thought you heard yeah you don't you don't hear you don't have to be wrong.

Yeah or it sounds like you're saying, x, yeah or you you just you just paraphrase it a little bit. You know as much as you can to try to synopsize what they just said and one of two things going to happen, which are both in your favor. You hit the bull's eye and you trigger a release of oxytocin, which is the bonding drug and which is cool because now you're beginning to build a client relationship that you want, or they correct you and you trigger the release of serotonin, which is a confidence drug Which is feels phenomenal in the moment in a different way and now you're building uh a a client relationship with them, because they don't know, but they felt so good in the interaction that they wanted to continue. We could probably stop.

We could probably just stop right here jeff, but let's keep going that's exactly what i was thinking, but let's, but i want to get to. I was digging through uh, a bunch of my archives and in there i find chris one of my early mentors, brian tracy. The you know the 21 closes to get the yes and it's the standard, yes set close that i felt like that was like just that's how i was raised as a sales person get the yes get. The ass get the yes get the ass.

Are you wearing a shirt? Yes, are you wearing a microphone? Yes, we should do this together. Yes, right, like that, that silly pattern, and and the first time i heard you - you talked about it's not about the yes, it's about the no. I have used that non-stop sense. Can you can you educate the listener that doesn't know what i'm really talking about here like give them a little backstory and and then share the four questions that you want to get the know, yeah.

Well, excuse me um. I think there was probably a point in time when the yes momentum, yesable proposition right. There was probably a point in time when that was a good idea, yeah and then it became so effective that people were using it for everything and then unfortunately, then also people that we can't trust, learn to use it to negotiate. You know all kind of bad deals.

There are industries out there that are just freaking famous for just exploiting people to the point of financial ruin right. So then the problem is, it's been used so much and so globally that people are yes, battered, like everybody over the age of 19 years old has been bamboozled by the yes momentum. You know uh momentum selling because it was so taught so pervasively and it was at one point in time - was i'm willing to concede? There was probably a point in time when it was effective, but now when people are yes battered, they don't know what it is. But they get a gun instinct memory in their bones, that they've got bamboozled.

You know the what's the phrase once you're bitten by a snake, you're afraid of ropes right, like you're, afraid of everything that even comes close to resembling it. So you as a real estate agent, you as a business person, use a trusted colleague, even the minute. You start trying to get people to say. Yes, they it triggers an overdose from the person that hurt them.

Even if they like you, even if they know you, you can't get past the fact that they're, yes battered you know a grown-up - tries to give a hug to a battered child yup, because you know that hugs they're, actually something people are healthier if they get hugged Regularly you're actually healthy correct, but you try to hug a bad child they're going to flinch because the last adult they try to hug them beat them. So your intention is not good enough here and it's so bad that we've just found like look. You got to get out of yes entirely and as simple as it is as ridiculous as it is, all you got to do is change your yes oriented question to a no oriented question. Are you against? Is it ridiculous yeah? Does this seem like a bad idea? Do you disagree, would it be unreasonable? Would it be unreasonable right and the trigger of the no, because while people have been conditioned, that, yes is a trap, they've also been conditioned that every time they say no, they protect themselves again.

I'll refer to my son, brandon who's, a genius negotiator when he was 17 and it was dead. Can i and i'd say no before he even finished a sentence, but i look back on it and i realized that, having said no and i felt protected, i was then more willing to listen and i would almost invariably turn around with all right. So what was it that you wanted now? Having said no, i feel protected and now i'm more open-minded process right, but but chris would it be unreasonable for you to tell the story about how you almost killed jack welch? Why why no somehow, i feel compelled to say no, i don't know what is something mystical and magical just came over me because i said yeah, no, i mean um, i'm in la a number of years ago, i'm still teaching at usc university of southern california and Uh jack walter book signing in la you know, i'm going through the long line of people signing the books, and so what does that mean? By the time you get up to jack they're doing everything they can do to keep you from talking to them because they got they got 300 people to get through the line. You stand there in chat for five minutes everybody's there for six hours.

So there's a million reasons why they don't want you talking to jack. Now i'm gon na pitch jack and i know i've got the opportunity to say one thing period period. I can't even introduce myself. I can't even i can't do anything i got.

I got time for one sentence, so you know i know the magic of getting to know. So i walk up to him. I look him in the eye and go. Is it a ridiculous idea for you to come and speak at the negotiation course that i teach at usc and and he he first he looks at me.

He kind of gets a little bit of a scout and he looks up into the left and he just gets this hideous scowl on his face. He just freezes - and this was several years ago - jack waltz god, god rest his soul. All my experience with him, genuine decent human being and he freezes and he looks furious and then he doesn't move and my first thought is: he he's so angry. He had a stroke and he died and he's going to follow her dad right in front of me because he doesn't move and then you know, then i think all right so he's not dead.

But he's furious he's going to have him throw me out, but then, after what seemed like an eternity, he looks back at me and he says this is my personal assistant's name. This is a special twitter account. We have set up to communicate with her. I will call her and tell her who you are what you want.

I think we're going to be in los angeles in the fall. If we are we'll come in and speak to your class. So not only did he process it. No, but he thought through the next four or five steps for implementation, and it was done boom it.

It went that quickly, so so i was watching. I was watching your reading, after which one it was. First of all, thank you for telling that story, because i i probably listened to it three times and every time i listened to it, i could, because i you could see jack's face just like right in that moment, probably his wife actually like you're killing my husband. What the hell is going on here, um, it's a great example, though, so so many of our clients deal with these situations, where they need to ask a better question right, something that no one else is asking everybody's saying like hey.

Would you like to know the new value of your house everybody's, saying, hey if i can get you a price, would you be willing to x right, like everybody's, doing that over and over again and if you're out there and you're listening you're doing that and you're Getting terrific results just fast forward on this, this audio message, otherwise, listen up you you once said i want to say there was like four different openings. I think it was to the no question we you know. Is it ridiculous? Would it be unreasonable? Is that the pattern, or were there four specific questions? Well, you know, i i i think, there's there's probably about three or four um. You know if i may i'll put in an ad for our youtube channel, because i know i've got a video up uh, the top four no oriented questions, that's what it was where i kind of walked through it and and what they are and what's behind them, And - and the other thing to do also is, if you just write down, are you against you disagree? Would it be ridiculous, and then you you, while you're writing, you're going to think well? Could i say it this way as long as you're intentionally attempting to trigger a no? Yes, you will begin to figure out other great ways to putting it now.

Some of them are context driven. You know one of the key ones, which is for restarting conversations with people who have stopped talking with you is, have you given up on working with me, might be giving up on x, y or z? Now we find like the? Not only will the other person respond, but in a ridiculously short period of time, like that, has the highest compliance rate of anything and quick like as as a general rule like when i send that questions. If i'm sending a text which i and i know that they're going to see a text right away - hey you know, have you given up on the project with the black swan group, i'm going to sit there and wait because they're going to answer within three to Five minutes now context situation drive strategy. If this is your opening line, then that question is probably out of context good point and that's a great way for that great question to now create dissonance in me in erode trust.

So when i get an opening email - and i know how effective this email is like - have you given up on taking me on as an intern or have you given up on looking at my website when i've never gone with these people, and i have never started. I either delete that email right or occasionally i'll respond, because i suspect that it's somebody, i can't trust, and they will. Let me know in their very next response, they'll confirm to me that i can't trust them that they're trying to take advantage of me and that one is so effective that the people that you can't trust have been picked up have picked up on it and they're They're looking for mechanisms not because they're trying to work with you they're looking for the hacks to take you to the cleaners. So if you get that question out of context, wait a minute, i never started with you how? How could i, how could i have given up it's a bad sign? Yeah chris, i'm sitting there thinking you ever mess with cold callers when they call you could you imagine calling chris as a cold call? You know i will tell you everybody on my team when we get hit with a bad cold calling script right, we'll take a tr.

If we have time on our hands, you know i realize that some poor schmucks, probably just starting out it's a tough job. You know they're just they're just doing what the boss told them to do, we'll try to correct them. You know i'll jump in and we'll be looking to give a short tutorial. This is like this is your lucky day, you're going to kill, that's good, you know we, you know we could tell that you know you could tell from the tone of voice.

Was some kid starting out somebody trying to make a house payment somebody in a bad place and they were just taking whatever work they could get right. So i'm like all right. I'm gon na give this i'm gon na give this guy. I'm gon na give this gala.

I'm gon na give him a break. They probably won't hear me now, but i'm gon na say something that'll get him to reflect back. So, if they're learners, when they move on, then they can get better. It's so funny.

You say that i'm shout out to hanen levine if you're listening right now from orange county california, who get this chris, he cole calls me at my house he's working for some silly company. I don't know what's not in the real estate business and he was so smooth so authentic. So humble that i was like tell me more like what and then i remember like five minutes into the conversation literally five minutes in a cold call. I'm a busy guy and i'm like this guy, is so good.

I'm like where do you work like he's like he's like you know, i told you the company? No, no, where do you live he's like i'm in like fullerton, i'm like listen to me. I don't know what you get paid, but i'm willing to bet. I would pay you more. I recruited the guy, he worked for me for five years crushed it with me then went into real estate and killed it.

So i love that. I love that you would actually take the time i know everybody's busy, but if you actually took time to help that person like that, just that makes my heart sing. Yeah. You know and and the word that you used to describe him - which i'm sure was one of the main reasons why you went on you said the guy was authentic, yeah, authentic yep yep, and he was you know european accent european like so so he didn't come Across, like i know, a lot of euros that you know germans, austrians right like super intense and he is, but he was just like i'm just you know letting you know, i'm calling people in your area and i'm not telling you that everybody is signing up for It i'm just letting you know if this is something you'd be interested in, it was like and that wasn't even the script it was so it was just so genuine right.

It didn't sound salesy at all, which is why i was so engaged with the guy. But let's let's go a different direction. I want to make sure so other side speaks first, then you gave some really cool insights around like labels. Like sounds like you're saying this, like really having people know that you're listening that you're really listening, you're validating that um, you know validation of listing and then obviously you know getting to the know like all of that is great, i want.

I want them to hear that that's right, the whole strategy around getting to that's right - and i know as a hostage negotiator that every story i heard you talk about was brilliant. Can you put it into a scenario for business yeah well and that's getting back into checking out your understanding what they heard and then then you're really trying to you. Ask yourself right. So, what's the subtle unexpressed want here and if in your summary of where they've come from, if you can find you know the hidden unexpressed want and nail it.

You know that, then, then, that that that's the oxytocin moment, that's the that's right moment! Yeah, it's! You know you're triggering an epiphany about themselves and oxytocin is a bonding drug and when you trigger that, then i mean the feeling on their side. Is it's the enlightenment? It feels phenomenal and they bond with you. You know a couple years ago, i'm in a conversation i'm struggling with something you know i get uh senior executives of my team were getting coached by strategic coach dan sullivan outfit out of toronto. We're a big believer in these guys, so i'm at at one of the gatherings we're sitting around.

You know in a bar with some of the people in in the community that night and i'm struggling with something i'm talking through it, and i could tell from the interaction you know. They're listening and you know, she's gon na get a that's right out of me and - and i i like to step back and say all right - i'm getting ready to hit this moment. What's this gon na feel like and literally the minute when she triggered this insight to me, and i said that's right, i mean i got a great hit of something you know right. I just felt really good in the moment, i'm it it was great.

I will be appreciative of that moment until the day i die, which is what you're you know, that's how you build a great client relationship. Yes right, you know, then you put yourself in a position now you're the trusted advisor. You start you trigger that's rights. Out of people, that's exactly it! What you just said: trust you're, looking for trust based influence, yeah, which once triggered the durability of that is you know it's like a blood oath.

It just sticks yeah. So chris, you think deep down. Yeah go ahead, yeah good job! Think deep down that people want to trust people or are they hesitantly not trusted well they're, hesitant to trust because they've been stung or you know, they're used to people that will look out for them only as long as it's in their best interests. That's dangerous right! So i think, by definition, the blank slate that we are when we're born, you know we're trusting.

I mean what what's the first year of our life experience taught us probably that we could trust everybody that picked us up. So you know you didn't get dropped 50 times the first year of your life, but then, after that you know somewhere along the line and in point of fact we can. You know my my guess is rough data. You could blindly trust 70 of the people that you interact with now in las vegas.

A 70 win rate will make you a lot of money, that's right, but as human beings, even though it's a minority that we can't trust again once bitten by a snake. You're scared of ropes right once you get betrayed a couple times: it flips you into the other side, where you're afraid to trust. I was actually going jeff a different direction. I was thinking about the ability to to really listen to someone and to hear all the things that matter most to them.

Back to your question on, you know, do you role play? Do you practice like? Do you take the time to write down the questions, or are you thoughtful about this and i think we've all seen this in a in a live sales interaction, the person that is waiting to say something, but not really listening versus the person that you are. I mean chris like they're just like they. They can't help themselves right, like oh, i heard a little bit, i'm gon na go with that close close, close, close, close versus. So let's just recap: what i hear you guys saying is you want to move? But you understand the market's hot.

You also understand that you've been out looking for properties and there's nothing that really caught your eye but you're. Clearly you know, babies are coming whatever, whatever the life's like you're recapping, all they're, like yeah, that's yeah yeah. You heard me like that, just that if people would slow down a conversion or client success or whatever you aim for, i think all of it's going to go up. Is that a fair assessment yeah i love it and and maybe listening for the hidden underlying meeting yeah like if they're talking to a real estate agent look they've been on and i i haven't even kept track of all the websites.

Now, where sell your own home, don't use a real estate agent, you can handle without an agent and when people see those ads, they think this looks a little bit too good to be true to be true, yeah right, yeah, you know, there's got to be a Hidden catch, so when you summarize all the things thomas, you just said you, then you could throw in, and you probably got a nagging feeling here that there's more to this than meets the eye. You're probably afraid that there are tripwires here that zillow and webb fan or whoever else is out there are just not telling you and you got ta. You know you got a nagging feeling that you need a professional to keep from going down in flames. Where do i stop actually what's going? What's going through my mind is jeff i was actually thinking like it's unfair, like if you can have the clint eastwood squint, while you're saying all this right about for my team watching was like i was like i.

I know it's chris foss. Am i suddenly interviewing clint eastwood like right? I know what you're saying here right like know what you're feeling i feel you all right, let's go, and i got to tell you a funny story. I mean in previous life as an fbi agent, working a terrorism case in new york. We got a couple of witnesses from algeria, great guys and we're trying to look for a place to a safe place, to hide him and the first place we took to fell through at the last minute.

So me and my partner uh nypd detective, were driving they're sitting in the back seat and my partner goes like you know: what are we gon na? Do i don't know we we're going to put these guys someplace safe. Now no questions asked and i looked at them and said i got a place just give me about 12 hours and uh. My algeria are june witnesses in the back, they said, go back back, talk, talk, talk and then go clint eastwood and then they start laughing and and i'm too thick, and so i looked at i looked at my partner, the detective i go yeah. What are they laughing at? They go.

They just called you clint eastwood. I knew it had it. It couldn't have been the first time all right, rapid fire, so jeff, i'm just gon na hit him with a bunch of things from our clients uh. So so chris people wanted a role play with you, so here it is scott pridemore says how would you best negotiate with an agent you're trying to get to recruit your team you're trying to get him to join your team and they say chris i'd love to Join you, but i got deals closing in december and january.

So it's not a good time for me to switch companies at this point like i'm in, but i need time. Um sounds like you're ambivalent. I would go. I need a dictionary.

What is happening? Let me think about, like you just confused me: i love it yeah, but no yeah or i just i have you know, i'm afraid. If i, if i move, i could lose 30 percent of every one of my closings, so i'd be giving up like a third of each of these transactions. My income yeah that the potential that short-term loss really stings also sounds like you're worried about long term. If you're, only if you're only listening to this and you're not seeing the facial expression, i can't get clint out of my head now: okay, i'm going to keep i'm going to keep going ready.

Uh! Let's see! Buyer fatigue is real per renee funk in orlando florida. What are the best strategies, chris to main tr, to maintain trust and engagement through a longer than normal sales cycle, where the buyer is losing right, getting frustrated because they're not finding the one or if they do, they write an offer and they lose to another client. How do i keep that person engaged and keep that trust going right? So uh take the word, trust out put in predictability and here's something that agents do inadvertently all the time. Your interactions with them are completely unpredictable because you only want to talk to them when you got good news, when do you or they know, when you're going to have good news, you don't so communicate with your clients on a predictable schedule and then here's the other Part, that's even harder! Well what, if i don't have any good news for them.

Well, the the mere fact that you're calling them say just just call and let you know, there's nothing new, that's tremendously reassuring! You become eminently predictable and since in an uncertain market you then become the one predictable thing in the market now anxiety, one of the definitions of traumatic stress is uh. Overwhelming stress, that's unrelenting! What is unrelenting, it you don't know when it's going to be over. It's uncertain right, keep going and the real estate market is uncertain. So you become the certainty communication with you becomes a certainty, then this this whole trust factor becomes built consistently because they're sitting there, like - i don't know, i'm i don't know when we're going to find a bar god.

When are we going to find a buyer? But i do know that i'm going to speak to my agent wednesday, at 10 a.m, so i can calm down knowing that wednesday at 10. Am i'm going to speak to my agent? Even if there's nothing new i'm. I know that if there's nothing new, it's actually a piece of information, and it makes me feel like my agent is working, even though as an agent that, of course they should know we're working. You know if i don't get back to them, i'm still working yeah.

They don't know they don't know that they're humans yeah, so there's a certification yeah. So i interrupted you. I'm gon na hit you with another one, so uh. So chris we're you know you're the listing agent.

Now i'm the seller uh. We really like what you have to say and we believe that you love our house just as much as we do, and we really want to give you the listing we're just not comfortable with your fees. I mean there's other agents that would do it at one percent and you're asking for like two and a half percent to you. Would you want somebody who can't stand up for themselves? Try to stand up for you.

You know i thought i mean. I hear you and my mother just sold her house and she said honey. I i used, you know your aunt sally and we know that she couldn't sell her way out of a paper bag on fire and she we had like 15 offers on the house. I'm just i just i like you.

I just think that you're gon na you're gon na do a little marketing and it's gon na sell real, quick, because that's just the market, we're into just two and a half percent just doesn't feel justifiable. That sounds like you'd. Be better off going with aunt sally, because you know all right, so one of two things is happening here: yep they're, gon na go with aunt sally anyway. They just want to make sure that you're doing everything that she's going to do and so they're pumping you for information free consulting if you will or the other thing, which is definitely uh unconscious.

Unspoken thing like in this interaction: your auditioning is their ambassador and they want their ambassador to not give in and be very polite. They want the agent to be someone that absolutely holds their ground in a really polite and deferential way, and if you can't hold your ground for yourself, you ain't going to hold it for them, you're, going to throw them under the bust. You know how much other data do they have about people that have been shoved into deals by agents and they have nothing but a bad feeling over it right when they felt like the agent could have done a better job, but the agent gave in in the Process all right, i got one go. I got one go uh our good friend devin, trying out in hawaii.

He asked how, like you know, the negotiating with other agents is: when you get another agent, that's not really playing nice uh, whether they're unfriendly or just not a productive agent. How do we, how do we turn them into a foe to a friend? How do we create uh an adversary and make them uh this a better relationship? How do we convince them to do better, yeah, there's um uh, you know different. This is called boundary setting and a black swan method. I mean there's a couple different ways to handle that my my first question is: if they're not um easy to get along with when they, when they act out, like that, you know, my question is going to be them like what kind of relationship are you trying To establish with me long time how, how are we going to work together, another transition transaction after this right, you know: how do we get? How do we work our way through this together, so we don't hate each other when this is all over? You know the shift.

It's a it's you're shifting the other side's thinking like a lot of people have gotten very adversarial short-term, because the short-term successes are tangible. They can feel them. They could see them yeah, but they don't have a real instinct for the long-term damage. They're not taking long term that's right, so you you're wanting them to shift you're, not asking them to compromise their position.

You're, not asking them to compromise their principles, but you want to shift the thinking into the bigger per picture which normally you'd want to say. Hey. Look bozo we're both in the same community, the more you are, a jerk, the less i'm going to work with you and i'm going to tell everybody in the community what kind of a jerk you are. But you can't say that to somebody no right, but you want to trigger that thinking.

You know you want to trigger the fact that look we, if we're all communities, are small communities, so either we're going to work together again or people that, like me, are going to work with you and they're going to like you. If they know, i don't like you yeah, but you have to gently shift people's thinking out of short term in the long term. I love it so, chris back to the opening of this podcast when i said pressure, pressure pressure, pressure pressure, one of the big pressures that everyone listening experiences they're representing this, this wonderful individual or couple that wants to buy a house right and and it's exciting. We want to buy a house and we, oh, we saw this property online and let's go take a look at it.

Oh it's brand new. Yes, let's write an offer, maybe even sight unseen. All that is fun until you're now competing against five other offers. 10 other offers 15 other offers 50 other offers not not kidding on that number right.

How would you recommend an agent who's representing the buyer, pre-frames their message to the listing agent and ultimately to the seller to just get noticed to maybe move up to the top of the list? I think any sellers or buyer's agent that is not sending in a letter describing the buyer's vision for the home, is leaving money on the table like i, i am unwilling to leave pass any edge by because each edge accumulates, and i know that there are sellers Who have sold to buyers because they felt they knew him as people and turned down higher offers? Now? How often does that happen? How often does it have to happen right? All i know is i'm looking to increase my odds every step of the way. Instead of being lazy and going like, i don't you know, let's say that works one in ten times i ain't doing it at all. Well, that means you left one in ten transactions. One in 10 commissions, you should have got that you didn't get yes and then the flip side is what happens if you don't do that.

Your contract is nothing other than a black and white piece of paper. There's no personality to it. You are a number only you might as well have not even put in your your client's name. You might as well put in a number because they are not humanized in any way.

They are only a number and it is really easy to discard you. If you are only a number you are asking to be left out. If you're only a number, now, there's probably an almost boilerplate letter, then every agent could come up on behalf of every buyer. So it's kind of filling the blank, so i want to say i want to say, though chris really fast, everyone listening, at least in the u.s there is a fair housing rule that says you can't write.

It's like against it's against the rules to write a letter that says. Let me tell you about my client, tom and kathy they've got a two-year-old and a four-year-old, and they desperately want to be in this school area. Like agents are not allowed to do this, but the way i heard you just for the person listening who's like right now, flaring up - oh my god, fair housing. You can't do that.

The way i heard you describe, it was a letter for a vision for the home for the buyers, and i i i already want to call legal to say is that okay, like can you without without bringing in the personal details of the family and and jeff? I'm looking to you and i already know, there's like five people. I want to call right now just to say, but but maybe chris obviously you know this is a very small, narrow, little rule that was created about a year and a half ago in real estate. So like it just is what it is, but talk about the vision for the house like give us an example. You know uh uh, my clients want to have have the same memories of joy and laughter that you've had yeah.

There's nothing like that. Yeah! You haven't. You haven't revealed the name: family, demographics, right, yeah, yeah, and that and and those are the subtle differences. You know they're looking for a place to raise a family and and have the immortal same immortal moments in this home that you had they're, not looking for a house looking for a home, yeah yeah, even jeff, just thinking about just even that and then what about? If you had a chance to talk to the listing agent, who ultimately is gon na present, five offers seven offers ten offers, but there's something about likability and - and you know, i'm i'm speaking like the unwritten rule, like you can't say that, but no there's a likability Of you know, you know hey all these offers the same.

I know this agent, this agent's a good agent. What what advice do you have and again not knowing all the rules, and i won't bore you with all those details, but just what advice do you have for somebody? Just i'm calling that listing agent, i'm sending him an email, i'm sending him a text, letting him know i'm presenting an offer and i'm just trying to create an edge yeah exactly right and you and you're allowed to create, take every edge you could get because they.